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Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Withindale] #2177491
11/05/13 12:28 PM
11/05/13 12:28 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Withindale
Hakki

Do you mean it is equal by some objective measure or sounds equal to a tuner or a pianist?


I mean, with the inharmonicity of the piano, is there exists a solution that satisfies exactly all the intervals of an equal temperament at the same time?

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Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177510
11/05/13 01:00 PM
11/05/13 01:00 PM
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You can always look at something more and more closely until it is no longer true. If you breathe while you listen to a tone, you will change the pitch.

A friend of mine, who is a high-energy physics professor, points out that physicists use math differently from the way mathematicians use is. Newton's laws work well enough for most people, but there is a point at which they do not. Einstein's laws work beyond that point, but there is another point where they do not.

You can get equal temperament on a piano to approximately the same point that you can measure a piano note's pitch, and that is far, far closer than it would ever be noticeable in music.


Semipro Tech
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177512
11/05/13 01:08 PM
11/05/13 01:08 PM
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Haverhill, MA
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Hakki -
You seem to keep asking the same question over and over hoping for a different and/or definitive answer. There are many possible temperament sequences which can be used successfully for equal temperament. There are also ETD's - if the tech knows how to properly use one. There simply is no such thing as perfection. All temperament systems (equal or unequal) represent some sort of compromise.
As has been said several times in this discussion, the specific temperament sequence employed is completely meaningless if the technician does not have the necessary skill. Ask the question a thousand times and the answer will still come down to the skill of the technician - not the temperament octave or sequence.


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177518
11/05/13 01:16 PM
11/05/13 01:16 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Why in the last decades so many respected tuners have wasted their time for inventing a new way of tuning an equal temperament?

Just to leave their names after they pass away?
Didn't they know that it was just a waste of time because it really did not matter at all?

Last edited by Hakki; 11/05/13 01:17 PM.
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Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177521
11/05/13 01:25 PM
11/05/13 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Why in the last decades so many respected tuners have wasted their time for inventing a new way of tuning an equal temperament?

Just to leave their names after they pass away?
Didn't they know that it was just a waste of time because it really did not matter at all?


No offense, but this line of questnioning is getting very tiresome. Different temperament sequences exist because some things work better for different people, not because one is inherently better than the other.

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177524
11/05/13 01:32 PM
11/05/13 01:32 PM
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Haverhill, MA
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"No offense, but this line of questioning is getting very tiresome. Different temperament sequences exist because some things work better for different people, not because one is inherently better than the other."

AMEN!!!!


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: beethoven986] #2177526
11/05/13 01:33 PM
11/05/13 01:33 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by beethoven986
Originally Posted by Hakki
Why in the last decades so many respected tuners have wasted their time for inventing a new way of tuning an equal temperament?

Just to leave their names after they pass away?
Didn't they know that it was just a waste of time because it really did not matter at all?


No offense, but this line of questnioning is getting very tiresome. Different temperament sequences exist because some things work better for different people, not because one is inherently better than the other.


No offense, but many here would simply disagree with this argument.

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177538
11/05/13 01:53 PM
11/05/13 01:53 PM
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Haverhill, MA
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Gerry Johnston Offline
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4th' and 5th's sequences are certainly the oldest in use. Some say that these sequences are not as accurate as 3rd's and 6th's based sequences. Earlier in this discussion Ed Foote pointed out that he had scored 100% in the temperament section of the PTG tuning exam using a 4th's and 5th's sequence. I, too, scored 100% on temperament using 4th's and 5th's. There are many techs who get excellent results with other sequences. What we do is as much about artistic judgment as it is about science. Why do some pianists prefer Bechstein over Steinway? Are they wrong? Is Steinway inherently inferior because someone prefers Yamaha? These are artistic judgement calls and preferential approaches to achieving desired results. There is no definitive, bullet proof temperament sequence - period. This is why there is no required sequence for the PTG tuning exam. A score of 100% on temperament is 100% - regardless of sequence used, 4th's & 5th's, 3rd's & 6th's - "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing".


Gerry Johnston, Registered Piano Technician
Haverhill, MA
(978) 372-2250
www.gjpianotuner.com
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Gerry Johnston] #2177541
11/05/13 01:57 PM
11/05/13 01:57 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gerry Johnston
4th' and 5th's sequences are certainly the oldest in use. Some say that these sequences are not as accurate as 3rd's and 6th's based sequences. Earlier in this discussion Ed Foote pointed out that he had scored 100% in the temperament section of the PTG tuning exam using a 4th's and 5th's sequence. I, too, scored 100% on temperament using 4th's and 5th's. There are many techs who get excellent results with other sequences. What we do is as much about artistic judgment as it is about science. Why do some pianists prefer Bechstein over Steinway? Are they wrong? Is Steinway inherently inferior because someone prefers Yamaha? These are artistic judgement calls and preferential approaches to achieving desired results. There is no definitive, bullet proof temperament sequence - period. This is why there is no required sequence for the PTG tuning exam. A score of 100% on temperament is 100% - regardless of sequence used, 4th's & 5th's, 3rd's & 6th's - "it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing".


And this is all what this thread is about.
Despite you thinking like this and believing, the Steinway & Sons company does not hold your point of view.

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177544
11/05/13 02:05 PM
11/05/13 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Hakki
Originally Posted by beethoven986
Originally Posted by Hakki
Why in the last decades so many respected tuners have wasted their time for inventing a new way of tuning an equal temperament?

Just to leave their names after they pass away?
Didn't they know that it was just a waste of time because it really did not matter at all?


No offense, but this line of questnioning is getting very tiresome. Different temperament sequences exist because some things work better for different people, not because one is inherently better than the other.


No offense, but many here would simply disagree with this argument.


Unfortunately, the facts are not determined by majority vote. I work with people who want to do their own piano repair projects and I regularly encounter folk that are under the delusion that you can reliably learn fine points of this (or any) subject on the internet.

On this forum you have people who actually know what they are doing and even fewer who have in-depth understanding of what they are doing and why. And then there is a large contingent who apparently don't know what they are talking about at all with no real-world reference for the words they use.

It is a mistake to believe that it is possible to arrive at any "official" or "ultimately correct" answer to this level of inquiry simply by asking the questions you have asked. Instead, actually pick up a tuning lever and put in your own time with the attempt. Then, you can come back and ask questions that actually mean something because you have some level of understanding other than simply empty words used to explain concepts and experiences that aren't easily conveyed in words. Further, you would then be equipped to comprehend the answers that you would be given.

The quality of answers that one can give is partly determined by the quality of questions that are asked. For example, the kinds of questions I would ask of a nuclear physicist are limited because of my lack of involvement with the field. If I actually studied and worked in the field then the quality of my questions to the top people would at least be something that made sense to them.

You have been asking low-quality questions based on no experience or grasp of the issues. If you do some actual practical homework, you could ask much better questions. As I said before, you may as well be asking the color of a number.

Last edited by kpembrook; 11/05/13 02:20 PM.

Keith Akins, RPT
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Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177552
11/05/13 02:21 PM
11/05/13 02:21 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Keith, below is my first post with the empty questions:

If you have any answers, opinions, I would be grateful to hear.
If you do not have any answers, you can simply choose not to respond.
I am not ashamed of asking empty questions. And I don't want to limit myself or think twice, before asking.


Originally Posted by Hakki
Recently I came across this technical reference guide for tuning and voicing.

From the guide:

"...Although there are numerous temperaments, Steinway maintains the A440 to A220 temperament."
.
.

"Steinway & Sons stresses the importance of aural tuning. Developing piano tone is a mechanical and musical art. Solid aural tuning exercises and develops the musical ear, giving the technician a greater ability to master the methods used in tone building."


And then it gives the following fourths-fifths temperament with M3-M6 checks:

A4 > 440 Hz

A4>A3>E4>B3>F#4>C#4>G#4>D#4>A#4>F4>C4>G4>D4

1. Why the World's premiere piano manufacturer insists on the A4-A3 fourths-fifths temperament?

2. The World's premiere piano manufacturer stresses the importance of aural tuning. What is the ETD manufacturer's/users counterpoint?


Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177558
11/05/13 02:29 PM
11/05/13 02:29 PM
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Why are you asking here? If it bothers you, ask Steinway!


Semipro Tech
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177559
11/05/13 02:30 PM
11/05/13 02:30 PM
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Brooklyn, NY
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Zeno Wood Offline
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Why are you doing this? Can we pay you to stop?


Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Zeno Wood] #2177563
11/05/13 02:33 PM
11/05/13 02:33 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BDB
Why are you asking here? If it bothers you, ask Steinway!


Originally Posted by Zeno Wood
Why are you doing this? Can we pay you to stop?


Did I step on someone's foot? Why is this reaction?

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177565
11/05/13 02:33 PM
11/05/13 02:33 PM
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Suffolk, England
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Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177569
11/05/13 02:51 PM
11/05/13 02:51 PM
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We have answered your questions, repeatedly. You have repeatedly said that our answers are not good enough. Yes, that is stepping on our feet.


Semipro Tech
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: BDB] #2177572
11/05/13 02:59 PM
11/05/13 02:59 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BDB
We have answered your questions, repeatedly. You have repeatedly said that our answers are not good enough. Yes, that is stepping on our feet.


This is not true. I said I was grateful for every answer.
Actually, you gave a satisfactory an relieving answer by saying that the manual existed since the 1940's. And I responded that I was relieved by your answer.

Could you be interpreting posts by others as my responses?

Last edited by Hakki; 11/05/13 03:10 PM.
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177574
11/05/13 03:15 PM
11/05/13 03:15 PM
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Hi Hakki,

I think this discussion started out with potential but after a while it started going around in circles. It seems to me that everyone but you thinks that there's nothing more to say. Perhaps the way you are restating people's opinions is leading to this feeling that you have an axe to grind. Do you have an opinion on the subject? If you do, then you're free to put it out there. If you don't, well, maybe it's time to let this one wander its way down to wherever old discussions go to die.


Zeno Wood, Piano Technician
Brooklyn College
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Zeno Wood] #2177589
11/05/13 03:42 PM
11/05/13 03:42 PM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Zeno Wood
Hi Hakki,

I think this discussion started out with potential but after a while it started going around in circles. It seems to me that everyone but you thinks that there's nothing more to say. Perhaps the way you are restating people's opinions is leading to this feeling that you have an axe to grind. Do you have an opinion on the subject? If you do, then you're free to put it out there. If you don't, well, maybe it's time to let this one wander its way down to wherever old discussions go to die.


Of course I don't have an opinion. I am not a tuner. I don't know the profession. I have said this many times in this thread. I also thanked many times for the answers. I don't have an axe to grind at all. I am just trying to understand the many aspects of different temperaments. That is all.

If by any means I can give an opinion, which is a very uniformed opinion, or maybe let me call it an instinct rather than an opinion it is this:

There is something that prevents me from thinking that temperaments are like pounds versus kilograms, as some have presented here. Again I might be wrong and they can be like that. I simply express my feeling about this, and I think I should not be kept away from expressing my instincts.

But, you are right I too think that it is time for this thread to die.

Once again thanks too all who have contributed with many valuable responses.

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177615
11/05/13 04:26 PM
11/05/13 04:26 PM
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Well, you're right Hakki, and also wrong. Keith is right as well, you'll never be able to understand the depth of answers until you work at it yourself.

What seems to be happening here is you get a good answer, but don't understand it, so you ask again.

Temperament methods are not all equal. You seem to have an attachment to Steinway's method, even though it is not the best one. There are greater pianos and tone development out there than what Steinway has to offer.


www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177668
11/05/13 06:08 PM
11/05/13 06:08 PM
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Hello, Olek.

Do you think that the A-E-E tuning sequence would affect the overall sound of the instrument? Compared to an A-A sequence? (Have you tried this A-E-E sequence?)

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177761
11/05/13 11:04 PM
11/05/13 11:04 PM
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Hakki,

I would like to give you my perspective even if it only partially answers your questions. I happen to know who wrote that material. He wrote it about 20 years ago while he was with Steinway. I would rather not divulge the name because it is not important. He does not write on here.

After serving Steinway for a number of years and accomplishing very fine work, the author of that material went into business for himself. He is actually quite well known and many technicians on here are using his two well known inventions. He is a super nice guy and we consider each other to be personal friends. I met him first in 1989.

He had always been a strictly aural tuner and that was perhaps one reason why Steinway was interested in him. It is definitely true that Steinway takes a rather dim view of electronic tuning. However, I do know that this individual now uses a Sanderson ETD.

When I first saw the writing that you questioned, I also had a lot to say about it and wrote a long letter the the editor of the PTG Journal when that same material was published in the PTG Journal(long, as I am know to do sometimes, if not quite often). I received a reply from the President of PTG who said that he would not publish my remarks.

He said that while he actually agreed with me on many of my points (which are reflected in many of the comments here), it was not the desire of PTG to "beat up on Steinway". It was their statement and he preferred to let it stand as written.

When I asked the author about specifications for octave types for the "A440-A220 Temperament", he did not seem to know what I was talking about. He could only reply that the material was intended to be a guideline.

Steinway is often short on words and specifications but long on the emphasis upon skills acquired by diligent practice and experience. The factory often hires people who live nearby and who may have no particular skills which relate to piano building.

It is hardly different from any other company policy. A company wants to train its workers to do things in the way which it has always done them. It is not interested in anyone coming in who thinks he knows a better way unless they ask for that.

This much is true: Theoretically and hypothetically, Equal Temperament (ET)can be constructed in many different ways. There are many different approaches to solving the same puzzle. In the end, the result must be all 5ths sounding alike, all 4ths sounding alike and a smoothly ascending progression of Rapidly Beating Intervals (Major 3rds, minor 3rds and Major 6ths).

If the above is accomplished, it does not matter how it was accomplished. ET can still be ET within a range of octave sizes or types from narrow to wide. Of course there is some limit but generally speaking, a narrow (less stretched) temperament octave will produce a mellower sound and a very highly stretched temperament octave will produce a very bright sound. There can be some choices in between those extremes.

Steinway does not specify an octave type because that is up to the technician through experience to know what is appropriate in a given circumstance. A strictly aural tuner may not even be able to define exactly what he does, he just does it as an artist would without all of the technical explanations or specifications in mind.

When the author said, "There are many temperaments..." what he really meant was that there are many temperament sequences which can result in a properly executed ET. He was not talking about nor did he even have in mind any other kind of deliberately tuned non-equal temperament.

The A4-A3 4ths & 5ths temperament is simply what is taught at the Steinway factory on Steinway pianos. When a technician develops enough experience to get a good representation of ET using that method, they can do it quite well and consistently with little checking. Since a Steinway technician only works on Steinway pianos, they get to where they know the sound they are after so they can do it reliably well. They have no need nor desire for any other methodology nor any deeply detailed and technical understanding of what they do. It is an art more than a science.

For all the rest, however, to attempt to learn from the beginning how to tune virtually any piano from spinet to large grand using that approach almost always ends in failure. The cumulative error problem and the compounding of error problem is what most technicians will encounter.

The reason is that to use a cycle of 5ths sequence is far more appropriate for any one of the many useful non-equal temperaments for which a particular quality is desired from each key signature. ET is atonal. It makes more sense to use an atonal sequence to tune it. The often recommended Contiguous Major Thirds foundation provides for that.

Still, there are many fine technicians who have always used a 4ths & 5ths sequence and who can tune any make or model of piano well. However, in my opinion, for every one of them, there are 9 for whom the results are like those of your recent Russian video. Not really ET.

That is why for more than 30 years now, other approaches to tuning ET have been advocated. Far deeper understanding of the science and specifications behind a well executed ET have been put forth.

Among those people who want to be piano technicians, not all can go train at the Steinway factory or are able to attend an expensive and exclusive piano technology school. They will seek other alternatives. Too often, I am sorry to say, one may study just one simple 4ths & 5ths sequence and not really ever be able to execute it well.

These days, the path of least resistance is to immediately turn to the crutch of an Electronic Tuning Device (ETD) and never even begin to develop the feeling and art of tuning upon which Steinway insists.

While one may expect that Steinway, as a company, might consider rewriting what it publishes, Steinway is known for not picking up on any latest trends or listening with much interest to what technicians outside of its own company have to say about much at all. Its pianos have changed very little in well over 100 years. Steinway responds far more to what performing artists have to say than it does to piano technicians.

So, in conclusion, just like Apple may not be interested in what Microsoft does, Steinway is not interested in any other company's way of doing things. While Steinway has a great respect for PTG and certainly does participate with PTG, it does not get involved with nor even comment on any other kind of methodology.

It was good of you to take note of how Steinway's publication seemed to differ from others. Steinway does have the world's respect as one of the finest manufacturers. But this does not mean that what it publishes as guideline material will work well for every person who wants to learn how to tune pianos. I can see how people will take it to mean a "best" method but it clearly is not what will actually work for most people. It works well almost exclusively for people who are Steinway factory trained.


Bill Bremmer RPT
Madison WI USA
www.billbremmer.com
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Jake Jackson] #2177764
11/05/13 11:25 PM
11/05/13 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake Jackson
Hello, Olek.

Do you think that the A-E-E tuning sequence would affect the overall sound of the instrument? Compared to an A-A sequence? (Have you tried this A-E-E sequence?)


I cannot say that really, I tuned it twice.

It change the way I enter in the tuning, it is a bit far from a M3 stack, a little less from a3-a4, but as those are my ears that experiment that,comparison is not so easy.

Nevertheless it seem to provide a different mood , and I liked that, despite the fact the absence of fast beating intervals before a good number of notes is not ideal.

Some tuners like to tune coming from different ways or sequences, be it for a change. But I thought for long it was supposed to provide similar results, I believe it may provide subtle differences, but "it is not important"

Next Steinway I will tune I will use it and see if it works fine at that moment.


Last edited by Olek; 11/05/13 11:28 PM.

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Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177799
11/06/13 01:26 AM
11/06/13 01:26 AM
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Hakki Offline OP
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Mr Bremmer,

Thank you very much for the detailed reply.

It truly was a very interesting and informative read.

Kind regards,

Hakki

Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177856
11/06/13 07:47 AM
11/06/13 07:47 AM
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Yesterday, I tuned the 40" Zender in my London pied á terre for the first time in 8 years. It was still quite sharp from the summer so I left it at 443.

I started at A2 and stacked major thirds to a3, (a scant 6/3 to a2) then slithered up the scale using 'up a fourth, down a maj. third' repeatedly only checking that the fifths were suitably narrow when I reached them. Yes, this was across the breaks, there are two covered unisons on the treble bridge. All the resulting intervals progressed evenly except a couple of errors in the minor thirds. This didn't affect the major sixths because I tuned each of the octaves according to what sounded best with all the vagaries of string windings, etc. The whole piano tuned out evenly with a couple of minor discrepancies in the bass, mainly 10ths &17ths a bit faster than I would have preferred. I spose I could have backtracked but it was so insignificant.

I've done this equally successfully many times before with small pianos. I throw it into the mix for what it's worth.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177865
11/06/13 08:24 AM
11/06/13 08:24 AM
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Olek Offline
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Hello, I would call that "putting the dust under the 5ths carpet" (and it does not mean careless tuning, that is just that your priorities where on M3 and 4th)

Today I would do that with 4th and 5 th, then the dust would be hidden in fast beating intervals more, but that can be left under "tolerance level" (the sense of progressiveness is retained) .
As a result I found a more coherent size for 5ths retained along the scale (some a little cleaner, some a little more unfocused)

If that quality is retained for 5ths (and reflected in relative intervals indeed), would not the result be more musically suited than the "ramp" of lined FBI priority ?

It may provide a different final taste, (possibly more "old tone" oriented)

I admit that, precision wise, retaining and checking the quality of 5ths while we go along the scale is really not easy I do not see how it can be done out of using high consistence in octaves or intervals balance as with 12-15, checking constantly the 5ths not by respect of the rule but for a specific "color" is not really practical.

Whatever, I feel that it may have some advantage and of course for some type of music, and of course it would be difficult for the pianist to suspect the piano is not in ET.

That is yet done (5ths with differences) when tuning the most perfect fast beating intervals progression, and I noticed that at numerous occasion. Keeping consistency of those difference seem desirable to me "if possible"

Thanks for participating, the ideas and experience are really welcome

Indeed some good scales provide really very little mistakes, the intervals have imbrication nicely, so those 5ths differences are not always suspected, particularly when the temperament is yet enlarged a little and the 5ths are soon in the"pure region", with a little added leeway provided by the differences between 3:2 and 6: 4 partials. (I have seen numerous times 5th that where "tempered" at 6:4)

BTW do you feel that, aurally something similar may happen to M3, when the tuner reintroduce the M3 beat one octave higher in his listening of interval activity ?)

Now using progressiveness as a goal for all intervals is also interesting and when doing so the justness sensation is really reinforced. (there is not the slightest doubt about where to tune those high notes or where the violin must play them)

A good option for duos , or trios in my opinion, providing strong intonation that way. But it may sound a bit "modern"...




Last edited by Olek; 11/06/13 11:12 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: rXd] #2177874
11/06/13 08:41 AM
11/06/13 08:41 AM
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France
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Olek Offline
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Originally Posted by rxd
Yesterday, I tuned the 40" Zender in my London pied á terre for the first time in 8 years. It was still quite sharp from the summer so I left it at 443.

I started at A2 and stacked major thirds to a3, (a scant 6/3 to a2) then slithered up the scale using 'up a fourth, down a maj. third' repeatedly only checking that the fifths were suitably narrow when I reached them. Yes, this was across the breaks, there are two covered unisons on the treble bridge. All the resulting intervals progressed evenly except a couple of errors in the minor thirds. This didn't affect the major sixths because I tuned each of the octaves according to what sounded best with all the vagaries of string windings, etc. The whole piano tuned out evenly with a couple of minor discrepancies in the bass, mainly 10ths &17ths a bit faster than I would have preferred. I spose I could have backtracked but it was so insignificant.

I've done this equally successfully many times before with small pianos. I throw it into the mix for what it's worth.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177879
11/06/13 08:55 AM
11/06/13 08:55 AM
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Isaac, please read and make an attempt to comprehend what I wrote. Your ill considered self appointed editorials, appearing within minutes of a post is actively discouraging other tuners talking about what they sometimes do.

What bit of your stream of consciousness I could understand made little sense. So I cannot answer your question.

Please explain to me what the resulting fifths sounded like to you as i explained them That may help me understand you.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177902
11/06/13 09:55 AM
11/06/13 09:55 AM
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I will do better, I will record them.

I understand perfectly what you wrote, having done in he same. You also stated clearly you wanted the 5ths to be tempered, that is enough to understand seem to me.

If you don't mind I will write you privately about what I wanted to say.
That may leave more space for what other have to say indeed.

Sorry if it not clear enough, but tuning is also the art of compromising.
Compromising mean priorities
Priorities make choices.

The 5ths are giving us too much space to play. difference between a 5th with 1 beat in 5 seconds and one with 1 beat in 2 seconds is not much noticed...

Once in a while a tuning have particularly good musicality for the music played and it does not boil to unisons and voicing only.

Looking for that recipe is interesting, and it may locate in the Grey zone above progressively beating fast intervals and something that begin to resemble a mild WT.

Présenceof the piano is more or less in one or another direction

Cycle of 5ths or adjustment to ih.

In between may be a "perfect" tuning that keep all 5 th sounding the same.

Not sure this is the best interest of the instrument/music.

Pianists are not so much aware of that, I very rarely have seen a pianist testing by cycle.


Last edited by Olek; 11/06/13 10:13 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: Steinway & Sons tuning guide [Re: Hakki] #2177918
11/06/13 10:30 AM
11/06/13 10:30 AM
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rXd Offline
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Isaac.
Don't be silly.

I asked you what my resulting and carefully checked fifths sounded like. It was kind of rhetorical because You can't possibly know, can you?? theyre behind a locked door in my London apartment. Now you promise me that you will do better and you will record them????

Are you on this planet? Houdini, perhaps? On something?

I loook forward to hearing these phantom recordings.

Please read what i wrote first.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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