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Recently I came across this technical reference guide for tuning and voicing.

From the guide:

"...Although there are numerous temperaments, Steinway maintains the A440 to A220 temperament."
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"Steinway & Sons stresses the importance of aural tuning. Developing piano tone is a mechanical and musical art. Solid aural tuning exercises and develops the musical ear, giving the technician a greater ability to master the methods used in tone building."


And then it gives the following fourths-fifths temperament with M3-M6 checks:

A4 > 440 Hz

A4>A3>E4>B3>F#4>C#4>G#4>D#4>A#4>F4>C4>G4>D4

1. Why the World's premiere piano manufacturer insists on the A4-A3 fourths-fifths temperament?

2. The World's premiere piano manufacturer stresses the importance of aural tuning. What is the ETD manufacturer's/users counterpoint?

Hakki, you ask these massive questions, to which there is no quick answer. It is good to ask, but you have to realize that nothing said here will capture the depth necessary to understand.

First, Steinway is not the world's premiere piano maker, they are just one of the good ones. I could name many better than Steinway. Their opinion here though, I do respect and agree with.

1. They advocate a 4ths/5ths temperament from A440, simply because that is concert standard, and they know that musicians listen to 8ves, 5ths and 4ths primarily. When you have experience tuning, you know that nothing can be in-tune all the time. You must choose what shines in the tuning and the temperament method has a definite impact on this.

I don't advocate using a 5ths/4ths method like that because it will lead to an accumulation of errors. Very skilled tuners can make corrections as they go and it may work for them. It is the oldest temperament method in the books.

2. What Steinway says about aural tuning being the cornerstone of understanding tone building, is exactly true. Detailed tone building is an art that involves changes beyond what instruments can sometimes measure. To understand it, feel it and guide it is something no ETD user can get close to.

There are always many people who will say, 'Well we tune by machine but always check and listen'. I say, no. You either are in it, using your ears completely, or really not at all. It is the difference between automatic and manual transmission when driving (crude example, but the simplest I could come up with).

Tuning by ear is shaping the sound. It is knowing the instrument and understanding music at a deeper level every day. It is hearing all the things that happen between 'out-of-tune' and 'in-tune'.

By manipulating a display you learn to defer to the display. The brain can only listen to one master at a time (even though some people might be under the illusion that they can listen to two).

What´s wrong with that temperament?

Tunewerk, thank you for taking the time and replying in detail.



These are exactly the words that are so often mentioned about this temperament by various tuners on the internet.

That is one of the reason's I ask, why Steinway & Sons is still insisting on this oldest method? Are they not aware of its drawbacks? It is for sure that they are.

Then what is it that make them stick to this oldest temperament?


I find your explanation about not using the ETD simultaneously with aural tuning very sound and logical. Since you are an aural tuner this makes sense.

I am also curious about what ETD users explanation on this subject is. Hence my second question.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this particular temperament.

there is nothing wrong but the one roposed in Steinway Service Manual (Hmburg, Max Matthias)
Ranges from E3 to E4 (with an extension to D#3.

5ths and 4ths can be tuned more sonorous when tuned lower.

I believe it gives a little more life to the pitch references.

A3A4 is more precise, being higher.

Most French tuners tune from F3 F4

focusing on 4ths and 5ths is very important, then the fast beating intervals are prooving if you are right.

Tuning directly M3's the tuner learn to haveprecision in those intervals, but there is no 5ths sequence used.

Accumulating errors can be mastered, and in the end guarantee than the tonalities are based on 5ths.

I will post samples of very perfect tuning that miss a little something, they are absolutely perfect for some kind of music and less for other.

Nothing, but the M3 stack have for long been considered the up to date and highest development in the art of tuning, leaving aside sometime the 5ths generated pitches.

Greetings,
The world's "premiere" piano isn't made in New York.

That temperament sequence is only the order of the notes, and has none of the checks. I was told at the factory that the higher temperament was used because it was easier to hear in a noisier factory than relying on the lower octave. I don't know if that is true. I do know that I have never seen anyone create an ET by using nothing but the fourth and fifth intervals. The cumulative error is unavoidable without secondary measurements.

What is of interest is the idea that an ETD user will never master tone-building. I disagree, as I have seen it happen,

"I don't advocate using a 5ths/4ths method like that because it will lead to an accumulation of errors. Very skilled tuners can make corrections as they go and it may work for them. It is the oldest temperament method in the books."

The fourths and fifths temperament is actually a temperament of all intervals, since we use thirds and sixths to check the fourths and fifths. Many of the "thirds" temperaments use fourths and fifths as checks. All the great aural tuners I have seen use a combination of both. This fourths and fifths temperament managed to score 100 on my PTG exam, and it is simple to control how much stretch I want at the beginning, so I don't worry too much about it's shortcomings.
Regards,

The idea that it is easier in a noisy environment, is possible, but 6 ths and M3 are fast and not as easy to apprehend than when tuned lower.

What I find is that I prefer to have a stack of M3 obtained based on 4ths and 5ths than tuning them directly. The output have different characteristics.

It is convenient for a tuner that need to be proficient and tune fast aurally, to learn to use M stacks.

The good ones are eventually cheating a little on the 5ths then.
I hear the stack as a strong brick that the tuning can be build upon.

Now for romantic music (for instance) I'd prefer a little skewed M3 stack if the 5ths are better sounding. due to the iH the 5 th have some leeway - so they are not as easy to tune as M3 focusing directly on them sice the temperamnt is possibly adding some coherence.

In any case, once all pitches have been defined all good tuners use 5ths and 4ths to expand, so they keep a sense on how those intervals are tuned even if they are not used so much primarily.

Ed, so why do you use different octaves "type" in your recording ?
the ET version have enlarged octaves, when compared to the UT.

Do you have an idea of the reason ? or do I hear it incorrectly ?

As anything else, the context of the writing must be examined and understood.

- When was the annual written? (times change, and flavors of the day change with it)
- Who wrote the manual? (there is always personal preference and bias)
- For whom was the manual written? (is it a training manual, designed to give aspiring techs a fundamental understanding, or a text for advanced techs, or a PR blurb for the public?)
- In which language was it written? (is there something which was lost or altered in translation?)

You can't take anything you find and accept it as gospel. For example, what does "Steinway maintains the A440 to A220 temperament"mean? It does not make sense at all. You can tune many different temperaments within that interval....

ETDs are great tools that can help produce outstanding tunings. However, I think it important to aurally verify the tuning after you are done, if for no other reason than it is quicker than checking each note against the machine. If I find something amiss when checking by ear, the error is usually confirmed by the machine. Aural checks are also a great way to spot unisons that aren't quite dead-on.

So, my thought is... if you don't want to tune aurally, fine. I don't really care for it either because I find it physically uncomfortable and awkward. However, you should at least know some aural checks, and have a basic understanding of tuning theory.

Nietos Beethoven, you can use them and tune aurally. After, it is too late and you are not in the mood anymore.

The problem when using them is that you do not always agree. Then you need to feel really secure to go your way.

Outstanding, not what I'd say. Much progressive or with much compromises, but even if you play with it, you slowly forget how a nice tuning is sounding an replace it by the synthetic version...

The three recordings of the Mozart were done by using a SAT template for the Steinway D that I had developed. The template is in ET and the UT variations are done by alteration of that template. The octaves of all three are exactly the same in terms of stretch, since that value was assigned to the template. I did this intentionally, so that we could have a discussion on the effect of temperament only, without having to take different amounts of stretch into consideration. (For the same reason I tuned the "Pathetique" in a Kirnberger on the Beethoven recording, so that we could have a benchmark on the limits of tempering, i.e. the 21 cent third in Ab is a full comma wide and was, historically the most extreme third in most WT's). It may have been possible to improve one or more of the Mozart versions by altering octave width, but I didn't do that for comparative reasons.

It is an interesting side effect of ET that the octaves sound more brilliant, perhaps owing to our perception of how busy the ever-present dissonance is. It may be a result of ironing out any distinguishing characteristics of the keys, which could condition our hearing. I cannot say. But I can say that those octaves in all three tunings were stretched exactly the same, (within a 1/10 of a cent,or so…).
Regards,

Use of frequent aural checks when tuning, at least with Verituner, is not recommended (and frankly isn't needed). Regardless, I hope you are not suggesting that one need not aurally check his tuning before leaving....

The mistakes of the machine or operator are less consistent than human mistakes.

I prefer mines they leave something I prefer to the perfection" if ETD (because it is perfect in regard of its own setup you are obliged to follow it.

This world-wide technical guide for tuning and voicing of Steinway pianos also has some information about Boston and Essex pianos too. Therefore it should be at least from a date after the Essex line has been introduced.

But it is best that someone from the Steinway company or dealership who is also a member here, might better answer your questions.

"Steinway & Sons stresses the importance of aural tuning..."

I once observed a Steinway tuner using an ETD loaded laptop at their 57th Street Showroom.
Tuning the piano right by the arched windows, the fellow who wasn't paying too much attention to the task at hand, noticed me checking him out from the sidewalk.
He gave me a "What are you looking at" look to my "I can't believe you are using an ETD" incredulous stare.


H.W.

I believe you are missing Jurgen's point. Whenever you're reading something, whether it be a newspaper, scholarly article, monograph, etc. you need to assess the quality of that source and determine on your own whether the information is worth retaining.

You are absolutely right.

That is why I am here to ask questions about this guide. I came across it on the PTG site.
Since I am not from the profession I can't assess the validity of the guide. Hence my questions.