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Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: Gigantoad] #1895300
05/11/12 09:56 AM
05/11/12 09:56 AM
Joined: May 2012
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AlexSilvestri Offline
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Well, thats precisely their unique selling point, isnt it?

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Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri] #1895348
05/11/12 11:27 AM
05/11/12 11:27 AM
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Melbourne, Australia
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ando Offline
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Originally Posted by AlexSilvestri
Well, thats precisely their unique selling point, isnt it?


That and the 4 channel sound, which only factors in if you mostly the speaker system rather than headphones, and whether you consider the speaker system up to the job (which most people do, from what I've read). But yes, action first and foremost. It's the only one in its class.

Re: Inside the AvantGrand N2 [Re: AlexSilvestri] #1896047
05/13/12 04:57 AM
05/13/12 04:57 AM
Joined: Aug 2010
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by AlexSilvestri
I know it is a bit trivial, but I think the octaves glissando are a good way to exemplify the difference, they are notoriously difficult to produce on a modern grand (think Beethoven op 53 of course...


As for Beethoven's "Waldstein" sonata:

Far easier to play those double glissandos as scales in each hand, instead!

Save yourself blood and sweat on the keys for all of the effort...

Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns] #2170047
10/22/13 11:40 AM
10/22/13 11:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 150
Vancouver, BC
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NormB Offline
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.


As someone who has pretty much played conventional grads their whole life I have a question about how these N3-N1 sensors work in the real world. On a 'real' grand, once the hammer has sufficient velocity it will sound a note--whether the player bottoms out the key or not. I have got into the custom of not bottoming out keys quite a lot; the notes in question of course still sound. No such luck with any digital keyboard I have played. How about these? If the 'hammer' has sufficient velocity to strike will the note sound--even if you don't bottom the key in question?

Last edited by NormB; 10/22/13 11:41 AM.
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Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: NormB] #2170068
10/22/13 12:21 PM
10/22/13 12:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,271
UK
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spanishbuddha Offline
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Originally Posted by NormB
Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by Erard
In any case, it would be interesting to know exactly why (and how) they use two set of sensors, while it seem to be possible to make the whole thing work with sensors under the key only (e.g. PNOscan).


Though PNOscan is a flawed technology in that you can tap the key fast so that the hammer flies up and hits the string, but if you don't press the key all the way down, it doesn't register as a strike. Measuring velocity on the hammer seems like it would be sufficient (this is how most DP's work) but I can't think of how under-key sensors alone can do a sufficient job.

I wonder why the C3S has two sensors (four beams) under the keys. Isn't one two-beam sensor enough to measure velocity? I guess I don't understand how they are distributing the work here.


As someone who has pretty much played conventional grads their whole life I have a question about how these N3-N1 sensors work in the real world. On a 'real' grand, once the hammer has sufficient velocity it will sound a note--whether the player bottoms out the key or not. I have got into the custom of not bottoming out keys quite a lot; the notes in question of course still sound. No such luck with any digital keyboard I have played. How about these? If the 'hammer' has sufficient velocity to strike will the note sound--even if you don't bottom the key in question?

I don't know about the N1-N3 but for the NU1, which uses the same technology, the answer is yes, the note will sound without bottoming out the key.

Also, I believe that this is true of many high end DP's and perhaps you have not looked enough. Maybe others will chime in.

Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: spanishbuddha] #2170091
10/22/13 01:10 PM
10/22/13 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by spanishbuddha
I don't know about the N1-N3 but for the NU1, which uses the same technology, the answer is yes, the note will sound without bottoming out the key.

Also, I believe that this is true of many high end DP's and perhaps you have not looked enough. Maybe others will chime in.
Are you sure it's the same technology. The NU1 is a newer model with upright action. N1-N3 has been out much longer and has grand action.


AG N2 | CP4 | SSv3 | GK MK & MP
Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad] #2170109
10/22/13 01:43 PM
10/22/13 01:43 PM
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How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.

Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: helloworld1] #2170173
10/22/13 04:04 PM
10/22/13 04:04 PM
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gvfarns Offline
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Originally Posted by helloworld1
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.


You 100% sure about that? The N1 has a sensor under the keys that shines a red light and another two at the hammers. Some optical fiber stuff that creates a path that gets cut by a bit of plastic.

Last edited by gvfarns; 10/22/13 04:04 PM.
Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: gvfarns] #2170208
10/22/13 05:07 PM
10/22/13 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by helloworld1
How many sensors does N1 have? NU1 has only 1 optical sensor under the keys (A gradual semi-transparent plastic shutter that cut the beam). There is no hammer sensor.


You 100% sure about that? The N1 has a sensor under the keys that shines a red light and another two at the hammers. Some optical fiber stuff that creates a path that gets cut by a bit of plastic.


I am 95% sure that NU1 has only 1 sensors under the keys. I saw the whole actions during the repair. There are no sensors or red beam in the hammer. The only red beams are under the keky. Also the Yamaha repair tech confirms that NU1 does not have hammer sensors.

So, this means N1 also has sensor advantage over NU1.

Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: Gigantoad] #2170448
10/23/13 03:59 AM
10/23/13 03:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 191
London, UK
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de cajon Offline
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I can confirm that there are red lights under the keys of a Yamaha CX SH. As noted above, they shine though a graduated-transparency plastic shuter that gradually cuts the beam.

(However, with an SH action there are also hammer sensors. Both are described here . (You will probably need to click the Features tab.))


Yamaha C3X SH
Re: Inside the AvantGrand N1 [Re: helloworld1] #2171167
10/24/13 09:25 AM
10/24/13 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,675
Northern NJ
dewster Offline
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Originally Posted by helloworld1
I am 95% sure that NU1 has only 1 sensors under the keys. I saw the whole actions during the repair. There are no sensors or red beam in the hammer. The only red beams are under the keky. Also the Yamaha repair tech confirms that NU1 does not have hammer sensors.

Wow. Though it sounds like they maybe have continuous key position information (i.e. not limited to switching positions). I wonder if they're doing anything fancy with that info?

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