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#2170326 - 10/22/13 10:28 PM A theory question(naming chord progressions)  
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lean to tail Offline
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Triop
Hey, first sorry to make a new thread just for this but I'm having trouble identifying this chord and would also like to have a question answered regarding modulation into another key during a piece. And second, This forum is what really got me to begin studying music and although I have not logged in for a long long time I appreciate this forum and I am still playing and studying daily. smile
Now to my question.

[Linked Image]

(Assuming I have marked the chords correctly) Okay, so in the 7th measure the second chord is confusing me. EDFB...Is it a DF#B chord and the e is a passing note which I should ignore? I wouldn't know what the DF#B is. What type of chord is this?
And also after the fermata a f natural is given so I assume the first chord after the fermata and everything up to the end of the next measure, where a f sharp is given again, is modulated/modulating into C major? And then the next chord would be a first in the g major scale and then that c sharp comes up and the chord under the next fermata sign is a D major... So now we have gone into D major? And then after that the next accidental is a g sharp. Is that now E major? And my question about that is I heard from a teacher that you can use a system of identifying chords by bracketing/marking in this way; Say at that first fermata where I think the piece has gone ino c major for a little. Can I bracket from after the fermata until the next accidental(the f#) and say that the first chord after the fermata is a I of IV since the c major chord is the 4th of the Gmajor scale. And so on for the rest of the modulations. Thanks in advance guys!

Last edited by lean to tail; 10/22/13 10:31 PM.
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#2170339 - 10/22/13 11:06 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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Polyphonist Offline
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Originally Posted by lean to tail
Okay, so in the 7th measure the second chord is confusing me. EDFB...

There is no EDFB chord in the 7th measure.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2170344 - 10/22/13 11:14 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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Are you counting your measures right? The first measure in line 2 with the fermata is m. 6.

#2170349 - 10/22/13 11:21 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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Brian Lucas Offline
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I think you're talking about measure 5. Every line here isn't necessarily a measure line. The first "measure" is a pick-up, not a full measure. The first complete measure is counted as measure 1. The repeat sign is usually at the end of a measure, but in this case it's saying to repeat the pickup and isn't at a measure line.

Some of the more classical analysts here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would analyze the E as a passing tone or an appogiatura that resolves to the D. D-F#-B is a B minor chord in first inversion. I believe the proper classical notation is iii6 (with the six superscript) or just iii if you aren't marking inversions.


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#2170355 - 10/22/13 11:41 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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The DF#B alone would be a Bm played in the second position up from the root but the E on the bottom sounds like yuk (Bm/E). I is G and D is V. The progression would sound nice a G D Bm C. Bm in the Key of G is "iii" but I don't know why the E is there. Someone else may have the answer. So the progression could be I V iii IV V, and that sounds nice.

It could also Be "V6" with E in the bass or D6/E but the note right after the E is D so it could be V and your next chord is C/E or IV.


Russ
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#2170530 - 10/23/13 09:26 AM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: RUSS SHETTLE]  
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lean to tail Offline
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Originally Posted by RUSS SHETTLE
The DF#B alone would be a Bm played in the second position up from the root but the E on the bottom sounds like yuk (Bm/E). I is G and D is V. The progression would sound nice a G D Bm C. Bm in the Key of G is "iii" but I don't know why the E is there. Someone else may have the answer. So the progression could be I V iii IV V, and that sounds nice.

It could also Be "V6" with E in the bass or D6/E but the note right after the E is D so it could be V and your next chord is C/E or IV.

Okay I see that now. It was late and I too thought it sounded yuk like you said. So its just a third with the e which I guess is a passing tone? And do you know anything about what I was saying about naming the chords when a key modulates?

#2170547 - 10/23/13 10:30 AM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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RUSS SHETTLE Offline
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Originally Posted by lean to tail
Originally Posted by RUSS SHETTLE
The DF#B alone would be a Bm played in the second position up from the root but the E on the bottom sounds like yuk (Bm/E). I is G and D is V. The progression would sound nice a G D Bm C. Bm in the Key of G is "iii" but I don't know why the E is there. Someone else may have the answer. So the progression could be I V iii IV V, and that sounds nice.

It could also Be "V6" with E in the bass or D6/E but the note right after the E is D so it could be V and your next chord is C/E or IV.

Okay I see that now. It was late and I too thought it sounded yuk like you said. So its just a third with the e which I guess is a passing tone? And do you know anything about what I was saying about naming the chords when a key modulates?


I think that's a good question if I understand you. Chords would be named as they are but I thing you are asking about the RN naming structure when a modulation occurs. The thing is: A modulation occurs but the key signature remains the same. It is hard to follow where you're talking about because the measures are not marked. I found the Bm just by chance from the notes you gave and got lucky. Keystring said you're measures were off from being identified properly. The first perceived measure is a lead-in measure and the next full measure is "1".

Back to the other question: Can you clarify your question? This is interesting because I'm a beginner to.


Russ
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#2170594 - 10/23/13 12:06 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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lean to tail and russ,

you might want to visit this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2154769/Chorales%20for%20CATS.html#Post2154769

custard apple and knotty have been discussing that chorale. knotty put a recording of him playing it there ... the thread is "Chorales for CATS. So I'm sure they' be very pleased to see other cats!

... That chord you've been asking about is a Bm triad with a passing note in the pass. Will post a bit more about that and modulation and how-to-notate-it later ..

#2170655 - 10/23/13 02:03 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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Mark Polishook Offline
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lean to tail,

there's a lot of stuff going on the chorales. they're mini-examples of just about everything there is to do in tonal harmony.

the chords in chorales are connected through a technique known as "voice leading." that's usually a year's study in an undergrad curriculum - to put that into context. voice leading is counterpoint basically. in counterpoint and voice leading it's common to have dissonances appear on the beat - such as the one you've identified in the bass voice in the 2nd chord of m. 5.

the way to get a better sense of what Bach's doing there is to play ONLY the bass line. the play and sing it at the same time. then do the same with the soprano line. then try playing the soprano line and singing the bass line and vice versa.

what you'll hopefully hear is the lines are very perfect in of themselves. that passing dissonance in the 2nd chord is just part of a line that's moving along. in a performance the dissonance is barely heard because it's an 8th note long and a passing tone and there's no real focus on it. but that's bach's art - weaving consonance and dissonance.

that phrase you're looking at with the F natural. it doesn't modulate. it's all in G major but Bach is dressing things up with chromaticism. the D major chord the phrase ends on is a V chord in G. if you continue on in the phrase you'll see a C natural in the soprano follows right after that. that's Bach's way of telling you that the D major chord is a V chord and not a modulation to a new key.

one of the best ways to work through the chorales - or any one of them - is to spend time with each of the voices by learning to sing them and then playing one voice while singing another. as you get more fluent with the individual voices put them together into the phrase (at the piano)


Here's a post on my blog about Chorale No. 1 and voice leading and how Fred Hersch (jazz pianist) uses principles from Bach directly when he improvises.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/09/jazz-piano-voice-leading-fred-hersch.html

hope this all helps ...

#2170657 - 10/23/13 02:09 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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wouter79 Offline
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EDFB...Is it a DF#B chord and the e is a passing note which I should ignore? I wouldn't know what the DF#B is. What type of chord is this?

It's measure 5 I guess. And it's EDF#B

anyway EDF#B is VI9 in G major

[removed some nonsense here]

Given the pattern of previous measures I think I'd go for the VI7

Last edited by wouter79; 10/23/13 03:11 PM.

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#2170663 - 10/23/13 02:22 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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>so I assume the first chord after the fermata and everything up to the end of the next measure, where a f sharp is given again, is modulated/modulating into C major?

This is quite an interesting chord. Seems it must be some 11 chord.

Yes in my interpetation there must be a modulation since f does not fit in G major. But as said above, listen to it to hear what's the most natural interpretation of the modulation. Since all notes seem to be passthrough notes, I would not think too hard about that CGFD chord. However it IS on a strong beat so you can't entirely get away with just 'passthrough'. I think V11 in C might work? That fits the dissonance I guess.

BTW all just looking at the notes, again chec with the actual sound ;-)


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#2170681 - 10/23/13 03:10 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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LOL sorry I'm screwing up badly on that BDF#. Think I need to go to bed :-P I was counting the wrong directin, it's 3rd above and not below root...

So it's just III in G major

Sorry for the confusion.

With the E we get EBDF# which 3 below root so VI9 in G major


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#2170759 - 10/23/13 05:23 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: wouter79]  
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RUSS SHETTLE Offline
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Originally Posted by wouter79
LOL sorry I'm screwing up badly on that BDF#. Think I need to go to bed :-P I was counting the wrong directin, it's 3rd above and not below root...

So it's just III in G major

Sorry for the confusion.

With the E we get EBDF# which 3 below root so VI9 in G major


I think you mean IIIm or iii traditional. But yes, Bm is the 3rd. degree chord: G Am Bm (I IIm IIIm) or (I ii iii) whichever you prefer.


Russ
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#2171027 - 10/24/13 05:01 AM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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In the notation I learned it's just III. Never lower case as these are roman numbers.

IIIm would be superfluous as III is always minor in a major key?

Last edited by wouter79; 10/24/13 05:03 AM.

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#2171188 - 10/24/13 10:57 AM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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There are a number of conventions floating around. I'm familiar with the convention that simply names the chord degree (among others). If you are simply dealing with a major key, then obviously the 3rd degree chord will be minor, so indicating whether it is major or minor is superfluous. It gets more complicated when you have minor key. Is that Eb G Bb ("III" with a C natural minor scale), or Eb G B ("III" with a C harmonic or ascending melodic scale)? Otoh, by simply using III, then you are telling someone "I'm talking about the 3rd degree chord - you can see what its quality is" so it is kind of generic.

My first theory rudiments book used a generic RN, but explained that in "popular notation", caps or small letters etc. are used (III, iii, IIIX etc.)

You then get into letter name chords: E, Em, Eaug, Ex, Em/G etc. which indicates aspects outside of function. We get clones from this: IIIm instead of iii.

Finally there is the fact that music is more complex than the diatonic type music we tend to learn about in theory books, especially as it gets more modern.

The RCM updated its harmony theory book a few years ago. They used to use only RN's. Now there are Roman Numerals, letter name chords, figured bass notation, plus movable Do solfege.

Bottom line: there is no single system.

#2171298 - 10/24/13 02:09 PM Re: A theory question(naming chord progressions) [Re: lean to tail]  
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You left out: T, Tp, S, Sp, DD, D7 (not a D7 chord), kP, etc as we use it in Sweden (as well as Germany). In English its called Diatonic function: Tonic, Supertonic, Mediant, Subdominant, etc Its an excellent method in discerning the Function of a chord.


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