Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
52 registered members (Adypiano, beeboss, AndyP, CharlesXX, amad23, 7uturu, 10 invisible), 1,592 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#2169877 - 10/22/13 04:22 AM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: JoelW]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
Slow practice, slow practice and slow practice... and concentration (which is something you must train yourself to do). The inconsistency you're experiencing isn't from some mental "block", but because the physical aspect isn't there yet. When we "get it" part of the time and "know" we can do it and the rest of the time we're frustrated, because we can't replicate what we've done when successful, it means that we don't know exactly what needs to be done yet to properly execute said passage. We're only guessing. This is where a good teacher pays off in dividends. We need to learn, and learn how to employ, the proper technique for said passage and mentally learn how to concentrate our focus so that we consistently do the same thing each time we're presented with said challenge.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2169912 - 10/22/13 07:57 AM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: stores]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,874
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,874
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by stores
Slow practice, slow practice and slow practice... and concentration (which is something you must train yourself to do). The inconsistency you're experiencing isn't from some mental "block", but because the physical aspect isn't there yet. When we "get it" part of the time and "know" we can do it and the rest of the time we're frustrated, because we can't replicate what we've done when successful, it means that we don't know exactly what needs to be done yet to properly execute said passage. We're only guessing. This is where a good teacher pays off in dividends. We need to learn, and learn how to employ, the proper technique for said passage and mentally learn how to concentrate our focus so that we consistently do the same thing each time we're presented with said challenge.
This is a great explanation of how the physical and the mental are so tied together. Playing piano is a physical act, but we first have to wrap our minds completely around what we need to do physically. That doesn't mean we micro-manage every physical component - that tends to be slow and stiff at best. But understand the parts that we play consciously and letting the unconscious parts go. If you don't completely understand it, you may have success now and then but not be able to replicate it every time. It is really important to process after the fact how something felt, to analyze what you did - and better, when you try again and it fails, to analyze what was different and why it failed.

I agree, having a teacher is so valuable for these things.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2169997 - 10/22/13 11:27 AM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: Morodiene]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,384
Mark_C Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,384
New York
....and IMO what it shows is the divergent ways of seeing this, and how one can possibly miss the boat if he just dismisses one of them.

Most here approached it as though it's primarily a technical thing. I'm saying it's hardly that at all. You're tying the ideas together nicely. I think that for most people who have a problem like what Joel described, all the slow practice or fast practice or medium practice in the world wouldn't straighten it out unless he also realized aspects of the passage like the ones that were noted. It would enable him to play it better, but not totally reliably, plus it would be a much less efficient approach.

I'm not saying it's necessarily right to look at it mainly this other way (although I think so) grin i.e. that it's mainly a failure to grasp that what's going on in the passage is deceptively confusing -- but I'm saying that it's a big mistake to dismiss this. It's at least a useful additional approach -- to wonder, why is this passage giving me so much trouble, and that sometimes it's conceptual things about the passage that one hasn't been realizing.

#2170198 - 10/22/13 05:53 PM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: JoelW]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,873
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
dolce sfogato  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,873
Having practised, played and performed the Scherzi quite a lot, I must say that your problems with the ascending/descending chordprogressions as you mentioned bewilder me a bit, the whole problem of the 4th Scherzo shouldn't be in being able to play those accurately, it's much more in the the 'asides' that the problem lurks, and in maintaining a basic tempo for the whole piece, even in the first half of the coda, the sunny trills that even might evoke Siegfried's Waldvogel...If you have trouble in playing the chordprogressions, well, do try a bit of Saint-Saens's 2nd concerto, 2dn mov, or even Pierné's concerto, and concentrate on the trills in thirds, those are rather difficult to keep even and soft, harder than all those chords and all those tricky rubs up and downs that have to sound so lightweight.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2170203 - 10/22/13 05:57 PM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: dolce sfogato]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,828
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member
JoelW  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,828
USA
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Having practised, played and performed the Scherzi quite a lot, I must say that your problems with the ascending/descending chordprogressions as you mentioned bewilder me a bit, the whole problem of the 4th Scherzo shouldn't be in being able to play those accurately, it's much more in the the 'asides' that the problem lurks, and in maintaining a basic tempo for the whole piece, even in the first half of the coda, the sunny trills that even might evoke Siegfried's Waldvogel...If you have trouble in playing the chordprogressions, well, do try a bit of Saint-Saens's 2nd concerto, 2dn mov, or even Pierné's concerto, and concentrate on the trills in thirds, those are rather difficult to keep even and soft, harder than all those chords and all those tricky rubs up and downs that have to sound so lightweight.


But I don't have a problem with that stuff. The thirds trills are easy for me and all of the runs are relatively easy except for a certain one and the ascending half of the run in the codetta, but those just take metronome work for me to get faster. I was making good progress with those. The descending chords are seriously the hardest part of the whole piece for me.

#2170256 - 10/22/13 08:00 PM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: JoelW]  
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,166
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member
pianist.ame  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,166
Singapore
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
Having practised, played and performed the Scherzi quite a lot, I must say that your problems with the ascending/descending chordprogressions as you mentioned bewilder me a bit, the whole problem of the 4th Scherzo shouldn't be in being able to play those accurately, it's much more in the the 'asides' that the problem lurks, and in maintaining a basic tempo for the whole piece, even in the first half of the coda, the sunny trills that even might evoke Siegfried's Waldvogel...If you have trouble in playing the chordprogressions, well, do try a bit of Saint-Saens's 2nd concerto, 2dn mov, or even Pierné's concerto, and concentrate on the trills in thirds, those are rather difficult to keep even and soft, harder than all those chords and all those tricky rubs up and downs that have to sound so lightweight.


But I don't have a problem with that stuff. The thirds trills are easy for me and all of the runs are relatively easy except for a certain one and the ascending half of the run in the codetta, but those just take metronome work for me to get faster. I was making good progress with those. The descending chords are seriously the hardest part of the whole piece for me.


Like I said, practice those descending chords legato. That's the advice I got from my mentor when learning the Scherzo and up till now I still practice it that way.


Mastering:Chopin Etudes op.10 nos.8&12 and op.25 no.1, Chopin Scherzo no.4 in E major op.54, Mozart Sonata in B flat major K.333& Khachaturian Toccata
#2170260 - 10/22/13 08:04 PM Re: Scherzo 4 help [Re: JoelW]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,828
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member
JoelW  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 5,828
USA
Okay I will.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Are there any Steingraeber & Sohne pianos in Australia?
by PerfectPianoSearch. 06/28/17 03:22 AM
Kawai or Yamaha for classical music?
by James Guo. 06/27/17 10:47 PM
I hope I'm still playing...
by Retsacnal. 06/27/17 10:02 PM
Playing Some (Not All) Movements of a Piece?
by ClsscLib. 06/27/17 08:13 PM
Should I give up piano lessons
by dat77. 06/27/17 08:10 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,495
Posts2,639,688
Members88,206
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0