Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
54 registered members (barbaram, Beakybird, boombuia, amad23, Bachus, 13 invisible), 1,276 guests, and 9 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2170078 - 10/22/13 01:36 PM Is a teacher needed ?  
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Firas Kordi Offline
Full Member
Firas Kordi  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Hi everyone , So I started learning piano from 2 months ago.What I did mostly in this period is getting used to the keyboard and learning some fragments of pieces using synthesia which are above my level (I admit I went wrong with this), but honestly am having lots of trouble with hand independence and especially sheet music reading (mostly note values and rhythm). That's why I thought about looking for a piano teacher thinking it became necessary.What didn't motivate me to get a teacher at the beginning is that i learned guitar (from 2.5 years) by my self and having one wasn't needed.
Anyway what I want to ask is what do piano teachers usually teach in private lessons (1 hour) , and can there be an alternative to a teacher (method books for example)?

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2170102 - 10/22/13 02:35 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,315
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BruceD  Offline

Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 20,315
Victoria, BC
How did you determine that you did not need a teacher for your study of guitar? What criteria have you used to judge that you have "learned" to play the guitar? How well do you play, and how is that level determined?

Much depends on what your goal in studying piano might be. If you want to learn efficiently and well, there is no substitute for a good teacher. Method books might be fine, to a point, but there is no interaction with method books;
- how do you correct mis-readings if you don't know you have misread?
- how do you correct time values and rhythm problems if you don't know they are wrong?
- how do you learn to adopt correct technique or even recognize and account for poor technique?
- how do you know when you have learned sufficiently well to move on?

Private teachers often teach in either 30-minute, 45-minute, or 60-minute lessons; it depends on the teacher and the age and level of the student.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
#2170104 - 10/22/13 02:40 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Derulux Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Derulux  Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 5,446
Philadelphia
Playing the piano is one of the single hardest skills to master on the face of the planet. Perhaps [the] hardest skill is hitting a pitched baseball, because even the pros only have to do this 1 in 3 times to be highly successful. If you can find me a pro ball player who never had a coach, I will say you don't need a teacher. wink


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2170133 - 10/22/13 03:24 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,120
bennevis Offline
9000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,120
Like almost anything else, it depends on what standard you aspire to.

Can you play this on your guitar? http://youtu.be/oEfFbuT3I6A

If you can, and got to that standard without a teacher, I'd say you can develop hand independence and sight-reading on the piano without a teacher.

I learnt guitar by myself too, and have no problems accompanying myself in pop songs, and even play some simple classical pieces. But not Asturias.

If you only want to play simple chords to do some gigging stuff, you don't need a teacher. But if you aspire to much more - especially classical music, hand and finger independence, and sight-reading etc, you'll need a teacher.

It's very easy to pick up bad habits learning piano by yourself - it's not a natural thing to do, playing on black & white keys with forearms pronated.....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2170143 - 10/22/13 03:46 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Firas Kordi Offline
Full Member
Firas Kordi  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Sorry i forgot to point out that i've been playing on an electric guitar (which is somehow easier than classical guitar).
Anyway , my main goal on piano is to reach a level where i can play my favorite composers' pieces (chopin,tchaikovsky,debussy) so they are a high level to look up for , but I am trying a develop at the same time my compositional and musical side which I neglected on guitar ,(all what I did is learning songs and riffs) so reaching a musical level of the composers i mentioned (seems impossible though) is my biggest goal and dream.

#2170154 - 10/22/13 04:14 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,120
bennevis Offline
9000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,120
Originally Posted by Firas Kordi
Sorry i forgot to point out that i've been playing on an electric guitar (which is somehow easier than classical guitar).
Anyway , my main goal on piano is to reach a level where i can play my favorite composers' pieces (chopin,tchaikovsky,debussy) so they are a high level to look up for


You're really starting from scratch on piano in that case, as you haven't learnt to read music when you played the guitar.

The popular pieces by the three composers that are no more than intermediate in difficulty are Chopin's Nocturne in E flat, Op.9/2, Tchaikovsky's Barcarolle (June from The Seasons) and Debussy's Clair de lune. They all require complete hand independence, chord voicing, fluent arpeggio technique.....all things that you'd struggle to master by yourself, because what you hear on Youtube is impossible to reproduce on the piano without long hours working away at specific technical stuff.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2170188 - 10/22/13 05:36 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 589
Thrill Science Offline
500 Post Club Member
Thrill Science  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 589
California
You need a teacher! Even if you do most of your "learning" on your own, the teacher will set goals and force you to keep reaching higher.


Robert Swirsky
Thrill Science, Inc.
#2170202 - 10/22/13 05:55 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,866
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
dolce sfogato  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,866
Always.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
#2170305 - 10/22/13 09:46 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member
stores  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 6,651
Here, as opposed to there
All I had to read was the thread title (and it IS all I read) to say, quite positively, "yes!"



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

#2170332 - 10/22/13 10:38 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 51
AnneJ Offline
Full Member
AnneJ  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 51
Toronto, ON
You can probably learn to read the notes and note values on your own.

BUT, you need a teacher for the rest. A teacher will help you choose appropriate level pieces that will challenge you but aren't too difficult. Your teacher will also correct your reading of the music and your technique. Your teacher will give you goals to work towards and check your progress. Definitely get a teacher!

#2170376 - 10/23/13 12:37 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Michael_99  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
Firas Kordi, I have read your post, here:

Is a teacher needed?

Hi everyone , So I started learning piano from 2 months ago.What I did mostly in this period is getting used to the keyboard and learning some fragments of pieces using synthesia which are above my level (I admit I went wrong with this), but honestly am having lots of trouble with hand independence and especially sheet music reading (mostly note values and rhythm). That's why I thought about looking for a piano teacher thinking it became necessary.What didn't motivate me to get a teacher at the beginning is that i learned guitar (from 2.5 years) by my self and having one wasn't needed.
Anyway what I want to ask is what do piano teachers usually teach in private lessons (1 hour) , and can there be an alternative to a teacher (method books for example)?

__________________________

Firas, interesting post. I have a strange way of writing so please do not be offended by my writing and understand that it is my way of writing and I don't mean anything impolite.


As a beginner piano player, I couldn't afford a teacher. I had an awesome sax teacher when I was 40. He taught me that I must know the names of the notes in the piece and where to find them to play them on the sax / - but me now - of course - on the piano - before I play it. Because if I can't do that, I can't play the piece. My teacher taught me to be sure that I know the values of every note in the piece before I begin to play the piece because if I don't know the values of the notes, I won't know how long to play the notes and I won't know how the piece sounds. My teacher taught me to only play the piece so slowly that I don't make any mistakes because if I make a mistake, my brain will remember the mistake until I die or until I teach the brain the correct way to play the piece. So my teacher reminded me how important it is be careful when learning or playing a piece.

When I began playing the piano, I had no problems because I remembered what my teacher told me. I am now 64. It took me 6 months to be able to play hands together but because of what my teacher taught me, I would only play the pieces I learned with hands together and never learned any other pieces until I could play hands together slowly and as I said that took me 6 months to learn.

When the person is learning without a teacher, the person has to be their own policeman and be extremely careful and have absolutely the highest standards of play every moment of their life without one single except - and if the person can't keep that standard then the person would have to definitely have a teacher - no exception.

When you have a teacher, the teacher will tell you to listen to yourself when you play the instrument/piano. When my sax teacher told me that I didn't know really what he meant.

Now, at 64, I know exactly what the teacher meant because everytime I play anything on the piano, I can tell immediately that it is not perfect. So I have to live with my imperfections as all musicians do - but I tell you that so that you understand how high you have to keep the standard to be able to play a piano without a teacher.

cheers,

3B22TEA


Last edited by Michael_99; 10/23/13 12:38 AM.
#2170405 - 10/23/13 01:47 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,971
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,971
Finland
Originally Posted by Firas Kordi
my main goal on piano is to reach a level where i can play my favorite composers' pieces (chopin,tchaikovsky,debussy)


In this case you definitely need a teacher. There are rare exceptions, but in general one can only learn to butcher their works self learning.

And in the worst case you'll end up with some nasty strain injuries.

Last edited by outo; 10/23/13 02:20 AM.
#2170418 - 10/23/13 02:45 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 126
sydnal Offline
Full Member
sydnal  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 126
Note that I don't have a teacher and the following opinion might be total garbage.

/flame shield on

A 21st century individual who knows scraping useful data off the internet would be as safe on his own as in the hands of a bad or mediocre teacher. I think that applies to most topics e.g. I had better data on an ailment I had by examining health related forums and gathering statistics on what medicines/methods people use successfully in comparison to visiting physicians who would tell me to "use this drug for a few months and see if it works". So thanks internet, for the statistically significant data that you provide us.

/flame shield off


Casio Privia PX-350
Alfred's Adult All-in-One Book 1 Graduate
#2170447 - 10/23/13 04:55 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
drumour Online content
500 Post Club Member
drumour  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 872
Scotland
If you are "self-taught" then your teacher is, by definition, incompetent. That there are innumerable incompetent teachers out there is irrelevant - you are simply one of that number. For most people who want to achieve competence efficiently and without physical risk, a proper teacher is a sine qua non.


John


Vasa inania multum strepunt.
#2170460 - 10/23/13 05:51 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
Firas Kordi Offline
Full Member
Firas Kordi  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28
How do I determine if a teacher is good? my only obstacle now to getting a teacher is that the conservatory here requires 100 AED (almost 30-35$) to sign in , then 50$ each lesson. So I should be aware about the teacher and his competence. I didn't meet him yet so I don't know what to do so I get an idea about his efficiency. (hmm the teacher's nationality is Russian ,I don't know if this piece of info is useful by any means).

#2170514 - 10/23/13 08:39 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Firas Kordi]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,692
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,692
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by Firas Kordi
How do I determine if a teacher is good? my only obstacle now to getting a teacher is that the conservatory here requires 100 AED (almost 30-35$) to sign in , then 50$ each lesson. So I should be aware about the teacher and his competence. I didn't meet him yet so I don't know what to do so I get an idea about his efficiency. (hmm the teacher's nationality is Russian ,I don't know if this piece of info is useful by any means).
Nationality doesn't play any part in how good they are. I've known bad Russian teachers and good ones - like other nationalities.

First, talk with your teacher before you schedule your first lesson. Some will do an interview in person - that is best for both parties. Ask if they teach adults, as some do not. Right now, you need someone who will work with a beginner, and give you a good foundation. There are some teachers who only like to work with/only work well with advanced students. You aren't ready for that kind of teacher yet, so ask them if they teach beginner adults. Let them know your aspirations and ask them how they can help you get there.

Ask them how long they've taught, if they have any degrees, if they belong to any guilds, etc. These things don't matter as much as the answers to the above questions, but they can help to add to the overall picture. You can ask if they have an upcoming recital you can attend. Get a feel for the ability of the students overall - do they seem prepared (in general) for the recital? Do they play with relative ease? Do the pieces sound like they should? Things like that. There will always be exceptions - both exceptionally good and bad - but getting an overall sense of what the studio is like is good. Just be prepared, you will probably see lots of children playing. Don't let that get to you.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2170526 - 10/23/13 09:17 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: sydnal]  
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,971
outo Offline
2000 Post Club Member
outo  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,971
Finland
Originally Posted by sydnal
Note that I don't have a teacher and the following opinion might be total garbage.

/flame shield on

A 21st century individual who knows scraping useful data off the internet would be as safe on his own as in the hands of a bad or mediocre teacher. I think that applies to most topics e.g. I had better data on an ailment I had by examining health related forums and gathering statistics on what medicines/methods people use successfully in comparison to visiting physicians who would tell me to "use this drug for a few months and see if it works". So thanks internet, for the statistically significant data that you provide us.

/flame shield off


Not into flaming really wink

But I would like to add that even a not so good teacher can SEE what you are doing with your hands, how you are sitting and how you are moving, which you cannot do yourself. They can also HEAR your playing much better than what you do when you play yourself. It can make a huge difference. I am not a teacher, but often when I see someone playing even I can spot things that should be corrected.

It is not the same to record yourself, because you cannot spot and correct the problems immediately, which is the efficient way in learning.

The only kind of teacher that is quite useless is the kind that will give you assignments, listen to you play them and only comment when you play a wrong note...

Last edited by outo; 10/23/13 09:18 AM.
#2170809 - 10/23/13 06:52 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: outo]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 482
Tararex Offline
Full Member
Tararex  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 482
Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by outo
Originally Posted by sydnal
Note that I don't have a teacher and the following opinion might be total garbage.

/flame shield on

A 21st century individual who knows scraping useful data off the internet would be as safe on his own as in the hands of a bad or mediocre teacher. I think that applies to most topics e.g. I had better data on an ailment I had by examining health related forums and gathering statistics on what medicines/methods people use successfully in comparison to visiting physicians who would tell me to "use this drug for a few months and see if it works". So thanks internet, for the statistically significant data that you provide us.

/flame shield off


Not into flaming really wink

But I would like to add that even a not so good teacher can SEE what you are doing with your hands, how you are sitting and how you are moving, which you cannot do yourself. They can also HEAR your playing much better than what you do when you play yourself. It can make a huge difference. I am not a teacher, but often when I see someone playing even I can spot things that should be corrected.

It is not the same to record yourself, because you cannot spot and correct the problems immediately, which is the efficient way in learning.

The only kind of teacher that is quite useless is the kind that will give you assignments, listen to you play them and only comment when you play a wrong note...


I agree with both of the above. After 2.5 years of self-teaching - by which I mean digging through the interwebs for advice, videos and whatever provides answers, my training has advanced satisfactorily. I have no tension problems, sight reading is reasonably good, no hand-independence issues - and I can tear through a standard sonatina or easier bagatelle from unknown to polished in about two weeks. All's good - thus far anyway.

But lately I'm encountering pieces that require a more advanced technique. I can see that further advancement requires oversight and feedback which is impossible without a teacher. There's a limit to how far you can advance by yourself when the trail is as complex and obscure as learning piano.


[Linked Image]

Piano is hard work from beginning to forever. Accept this as truth or risk a quick exit with tail between legs.


#2170912 - 10/23/13 11:17 PM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Tararex]  
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Michael_99 Offline
500 Post Club Member
Michael_99  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 935
Canada Alberta
A lawyer or a teacher are only as good as the client/student.

The best lawyer can't win a case if the client doesn't follow his instructions. The best piano teacher on the planet cannot help a student who doesn't follow the piano teacher's instructions.

And if you have ever taught a class of students of any age, only a small number of students will follow the teacher's instructions. Usually the brighter students will follow the teacher because they know of what the teacher speaks but people who are less bright often look for shortcuts because they are having trouble and can't believe they have to know the stuff they are being asked to learn or they think there is a better way that is cheaper and easier - and, of course, it is a long way home to a destination never reached - sadly!


And conversely, if a client is honest, the judge and jury will see that the lawyer is not very good but know the client is honest and the client will win the case in spite of the lawyer he has.

So, too, if a student has a teacher or no teacher but is anxious to learn how to play the piano, the student knows just enough to realize the shortcoming of his teacher and or has no teacher and seeks other good resources to keep them on track of their journey.

And that is why life is so awesome because ones limitations are only limited by the person's determination to reach their goal allowing nothing to block their way - except their premature death!

cheers,

3B23END

Last edited by Michael_99; 10/23/13 11:20 PM.
#2171623 - 10/25/13 02:27 AM Re: Is a teacher needed ? [Re: Michael_99]  
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 482
Tararex Offline
Full Member
Tararex  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 482
Middle Georgia, USA
I'm not quite certain what point you are attempting to make.

Twelve years of my professional career were involved in education development, instructor management and classroom instruction. I am well aware of both student and teacher limitations. These include considerably more than level of determination.

If only a small number of students are following directions then the correct answer is that something is seriously wrong with the training. The problem(s) needs to be sorted out through objective review and deficiency correction. In simplest terms it is usually a bottleneck or stoppage in one or more resource that affects training success. Time (I work and can't practice!), money (No or poor equipment!) or access (No decent teachers in local area!) are the big three speed bumps to progress. Look through the "problems learning" posts on these threads and you will usually see a relationship to one or more.

As task activities increase in complexity it follows that granularity and specificity of teaching objectives must also advance. Yes, it's great that some (including myself) with an understanding of basic education principles or who are goal oriented may often tough out self-training for a limited time. My point is that when personal limits are reached a specialist must be consulted for further advancement. I will agree that a percentage of piano educators fall short, but that's a feedback loop on the access chain. In real life, we try to find a better teacher.

So, yeah, after all this blathering - it's tough but still cool when we manage to progress with resource failures speedbumping the road.



[Linked Image]

Piano is hard work from beginning to forever. Accept this as truth or risk a quick exit with tail between legs.



Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

UK Members
Please check in
UK Members & Friends
Checking on our members and friends from the UK. Please Check In When Able
Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Baroque duets
by WiseBuff. 05/24/17 11:32 PM
where should I put this piano?
by PlunkyPlink. 05/24/17 10:21 PM
Painting the ironplate with an aerograph
by Davemaster84. 05/24/17 08:38 PM
Greatest measure of music?
by JoelW. 05/24/17 08:22 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,866
Posts2,629,537
Members87,864
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0