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Even if he was talking about live performances, I see no difference between live and recorded in terms of learning by listening to a great performance. What difference do you see?
Well, for starters the ability to hit the replay button over and over …. and over.
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Yet, when I started learning a Beethoven sonata for the first time at aged 14 (by myself, without my teacher's knowledge), I already knew there were some things I didn't like about Backhaus's recording (which I almost knew by heart, measure by measure), and had no intention of copying him in any way.
Yes, but what about all the parts you did like? Anyway, having no intention of copying doesn't necessarily equate to having your own fully-formed vision of the piece, IMO. Nor does it mean that you are aware of unconscious influences (obviously, since they are not conscious). To turn your question around, what makes you think that even if you think you're playing your "own vision" of a piece you're not using some ideas from recitals or performances of the piece you've heard previously? Do you never use a single idea your teacher suggests? If you do, how can you say it's your own vision and how is it different from using an idea you learned from a recording? Do you never use an idea from a performance of a different piece you've heard? If you do, then I think your performance is not just your own vision. I don't think there are many amateurs who, if they were honest with themselves, would object to someone saying that their performance was like Backhuas' performance. I think the reality is that, with the exception of pianists at the highest level(conservatory level or higher), those who have listened to a performance by a great pianist will almost always give a better performance than those who have not listened. You use "own fully formed vision" as some kind of ideal, but I think with the exception of those who have never taken a lesson or are playing a piece that is so rare as to have never been recorded there is no such thing as a one's own fully formed vision. Even if they are the first person to ever play some piece, do they not use ideas they've learned by listening to pianists play other pieces? IMO the only people who play 100% of their own ideas about a piece are those who have never heard anyone else play the piano, never taken a lesson, and never used an edited score. And anyone in that category will not sound good. Do you really think the pedagogy project I mentioned earlier in this thread is a bad pedagogical idea?
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Even if he was talking about live performances, I see no difference between live and recorded in terms of learning by listening to a great performance. What difference do you see?
Well, for starters the ability to hit the replay button over and over …. and over. I don't think that anyone who recommends listening to recordings is talking about or recommending some blind copying of every aspect of a performance that you seem to be talking about. This seems to be a common criticism of those who don't think listening to recordings is a good idea, but i think it assumes the pianist is unthinking and operating at the lowest possible level. OTOH I think if one thinks there is anything that can be learned from listening to a great pianist's playing, one could also reasonably say that everything one can learn cannot be heard and absorbed in one or two listenings. I bet your son, who you know I think is an terrific pianist, often took the advice of his teacher about how to play something. So why not take the "advice" of some great pianist on a recording?
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Because a recording can't talk!!! A good teacher will NEVER dictate everything! There should be discussion and trial and error, but NOT playing a passage over and over for your student and making them play it exactly that way, brainlessly. I know that this is done sometimes. And it is called BAD teaching!!!
That's why listening to a recording over and over again and having a lesson with a (non-mediocre) teacher are two very different things.
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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Yet, when I started learning a Beethoven sonata for the first time at aged 14 (by myself, without my teacher's knowledge), I already knew there were some things I didn't like about Backhaus's recording (which I almost knew by heart, measure by measure), and had no intention of copying him in any way.
Yes, but what about all the parts you did like? Anyway, having no intention of copying doesn't necessarily equate to having your own fully-formed vision of the piece, IMO. Nor does it mean that you are aware of unconscious influences (obviously, since they are not conscious). I was young, and this was my first major Beethoven piece after Minuet in G and Für Elise (the latter of which I learnt by myself), and I wanted to learn it without the help of my teacher. No, it wasn't a 'fully-formed vision' - how could it? I'd had almost no exposure to any classical music until I was given all those tapes of Beethoven as a going-away present by my uncle, when I left home to go to a boarding school in a foreign country. And my parents gave me a portable radio-cassette recorder to play those tapes on, though I also had my Walkman. I know for certain that my interpretation was nothing at all like Backhaus's, because I recorded myself playing it on cassette tape, a year after I started working on the sonata, which I kept for posterity  (I have several tapes of my juvenile playing from my school and university years.....). And I can easily compare it with Backhaus's recordings, because Decca brought out the complete cycle on a bargain CD set a few years ago, which I bought. Of course, I'd play it differently now, with all those years of listening experience behind me, and having several recordings on CD, not to mention having heard it in concert many times. (But I still wouldn't play it like Backhaus, nor any other pianist I've heard). Yes, those first few years when I arrived in the UK, with unlimited free classical music to listen to on radio, were a steep learning curve for me. I'd say that over 80% of my musical knowledge and musicianship (assuming I have any  ) is gleaned from listening to BBC Radio 3's music and concert broadcasts (with their informative pre- and post-concert announcements/chat), and educational programs like Antony Hopkins's "Talking about Music", and Record Review (now CD Review of course), and a lot else.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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PL,
As a number of people have mentioned (fine pianists like Pogo, for instance), the influence of listening to recordings -- and modern equipment does permit easy repetition -- has many facets. Some are conscious and others less easily controlled.
The advice of a teacher is part of an ongoing and very direct conversation about technique, musicality, music history, and the specific work at hand. I'm guessing you would agree that learning from a recording is not as good as having a teacher?
In addition, the teacher in question (my son's) was not advocating ignoring recorded music altogether. She was positively suggesting working out the details initially in precisely the sort of direct and ongoing conversation I mentioned above. She preferred holding off on studying recordings until that teaching conversation was well under way and the student had begun to build an understanding of the work. Then recordings could enter the picture to enrich the interpretation.
If someone thinks that this process is just a vehicle for the teacher to impose his or her own narrow vision, then perhaps they have had some bad experiences with teachers. I'm sure some teachers do in fact delight in limiting a student to one particular view, but I doubt that jaundiced view of the profession is warranted. I know that wasn't the case in my son's training, and I know it from personal experience since I have occasionally worked with his teacher as well!
edit: while typing this tome, I noticed that others slipped in and made similar points.
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Remember that eventually you may want to play something that has not been recorded. Listening to recordings should not be a crutch.
Semipro Tech
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In all fairness, I will say that I do use recordings as an aid, but I try to follow the basic path of working through the piece first myself. Much of what I learn these days I figure out on my own -- the two little parts of the Grieg Lyric Pieces recital, for instance. So I don't have the benefit of much instruction.
I chose my pieces by sight reading through a bunch of options. That helped me narrow the list. Then I listened to a recording of the pieces just to get a flavor … sort of like attending a recital, but one where I chose the works played. That helped me select the pieces I would learn.
Then I worked on the pieces for a while to get the structure down, and I paid really close attention to the composer's expressed wishes. But I'm not a professional musician, and I would not pretend to have mastered any particular musical genre well enough to know the material cold, so to speak. I'm also not Norwegian, so there is no folk memory and early schooling to help me "feel" the style!
So, like many in my position, after developing my initial ideas about the piece I then looked around for recordings to see ...
1) the range of tempi.
It was generally faster than I had thought, and that was a big help. I pushed the envelope to match the speed of the pros.
2) how people pedaled the works.
I heard very wet and very dry and punctuated versions. That was reassuring because the choice I had already made seemed very appropriate to me.
and lastly,
3) how people played certain very specific phrases.
I had already worked out my own view, but I was happy to make some adjustments when I heard others play passages that just sounded more convincing to me than what I had constructed.
I had no teacher helping me with these piece. I think I would have operated differently if I had been working with one. And in any case, I worked through the pieces first and added the recordings later.
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Because a recording can't talk!!! A good teacher will NEVER dictate everything! There should be discussion and trial and error, but NOT playing a passage over and over for your student and making them play it exactly that way, brainlessly. I know that this is done sometimes. And it is called BAD teaching!!!
That's why listening to a recording over and over again and having a lesson with a (non-mediocre) teacher are two very different things. Yes, a good teacher will explain the idea behind all of his suggestions. And, because of this I've said almost every time this discussion comes up that learning from recordings is more difficult because the student has to figure out more for them self. But I certainly don't think this means that learning from recordings is impossible or without value. Rote copying of recording (whether from one listening or listening over and over again) or blindly following a teacher's unexplained suggestion are both bad approaches, but that is not what I'm advocating. Here's one example from my personal experience I've mentioned several times before. I was learning Keith Jarrett's incredibly beautiful version of Be My Love from his album The Melody And The Night With You: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1s84k5yThoI listened to Jarrett's recording and not surprisingly found his playing much more beautiful than mine.(I think he's the greatest player of jazz ballads in history). After listening a few more times I found that he tended to start each phrase more emphatically that I often did, and I began adopting that approach in my playing to some extent. It became a possibility that I was not aware of previously, I don't see how one could argue that anything I did or learned in this experience wasn't positive. And, amusingly enough at a Mannes master class a few weeks later, the teacher, Alexander Braginsky, talked about the same thing in reference to some classical piece being performed. He said something like(I'm paraphrasing here): "In Russia we have a saying that when a phrase begins one should make sure to begin it." (If anyone would like a copy of the Jarrett transcription, I have the transcriber's permission to share this with anyone who wants it.)
Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/20/13 08:51 PM.
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The advice of a teacher is part of an ongoing and very direct conversation about technique, musicality, music history, and the specific work at hand. I'm guessing you would agree that learning from a recording is not as good as having a teacher? I would phrase that slightly differently. I'd say that if one has to choose between a good teacher and recordings the teacher is always better. I'd also say. as I mentioned a little earlier. that learning from a recording is usually much more difficult. But neither of those points means that learning from a recording can't be highly beneficial.
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In all fairness, I will say that I do use recordings as an aid, but I try to follow the basic path of working through the piece first myself. Much of what I learn these days I figure out on my own -- the two little parts of the Grieg Lyric Pieces recital, for instance. So I don't have the benefit of much instruction.
I chose my pieces by sight reading through a bunch of options. That helped me narrow the list. Then I listened to a recording of the pieces just to get a flavor … sort of like attending a recital, but one where I chose the works played. That helped me select the pieces I would learn.
Then I worked on the pieces for a while to get the structure down, and I paid really close attention to the composer's expressed wishes. But I'm not a professional musician, and I would not pretend to have mastered any particular musical genre well enough to know the material cold, so to speak. I'm also not Norwegian, so there is no folk memory and early schooling to help me "feel" the style!
So, like many in my position, after developing my initial ideas about the piece I then looked around for recordings to see ...
1) the range of tempi.
It was generally faster than I had thought, and that was a big help. I pushed the envelope to match the speed of the pros.
2) how people pedaled the works.
I heard very wet and very dry and punctuated versions. That was reassuring because the choice I had already made seemed very appropriate to me.
and lastly,
3) how people played certain very specific phrases.
I had already worked out my own view, but I was happy to make some adjustments when I heard others play passages that just sounded more convincing to me than what I had constructed.
I had no teacher helping me with these piece. I think I would have operated differently if I had been working with one. And in any case, I worked through the pieces first and added the recordings later. That's perfectly reasonable and I often learn music that way. I think that when one listens to a recording is a relatively small point in the much bigger picture that you do listen to recordings.
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… and that may be one small point of disagreement. "When" and "how" one listens to recordings may be quite important, though the effects may vary by individual. I try to do as much of the heavy lifting on my own, early in the process. And I try to do that for the very reasons many have mentioned in this thread. But without benefit of high level professional instruction, I realize that there are insights to be gleaned from a careful listening. In fact, I don't think anyone has argued that recordings are to be shunned as anathema. We're all part of a much larger musical world, after all. Why else would we throw bombs at each other over Lang Lang's sometimes outlandish interpretations, or Lisitsa's …. nope, not going there.
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"When" and "how" one listens to recordings may be quite important, though the effects may vary by individual. I try to do as much of the heavy lifting on my own, early in the process. And I try to do that for the very reasons many have mentioned in this thread. But without benefit of high level professional instruction, I realize that there are insights to be gleaned from a careful listening.
I must say that you make far more use of recordings in your learning of a new piece than I ever would, despite my outspoken advocacy of its benefits .
If music be the food of love, play on!
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For me, there are some recordings I have loved over the years - Brendel's rendition Waldstein, Entremont's version of Pour le Piano, for instance. Since I've listened to them so much, it is difficult for me to separate in my mind the recordings I've heard from my own mental vision of the piece. Not impossible to do, but harder.
This is an excellent point. A few years ago I decided to learn a piece that I had heard someone else play exactly once, around fifty years earlier. And, amazingly enough, that one hearing from fifty years ago was still floating around in my head when I started to work on the piece, interfering with my own work on the piece, and making it harder to get to where I was going with it. I would much rather have started from "blank slate", but, OTOH, if I hadn't heard it that time, I might not have been interested in learning it - I don't know.
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Remember that eventually you may want to play something that has not been recorded. Listening to recordings should not be a crutch. One of the more disturbing things that comes up when this issue is discussed here is exactly this - judging from their posts, apparently many people here cannot even conceive of that possibility. It is yet another symptom of the death of what used to be thought of as "classical music", IMO.
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Well, these days the likelihood that a new piece will stay totally unrecorded for a substantial length of time is rather low. That may be why many people don't worry too much about ploughing new soil without the aid (or crutch) of someone else's version. But I take your point.
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Well, these days the likelihood that a new piece will stay totally unrecorded for a substantial length of time is rather low. That may be why many people don't worry too much about ploughing new soil without the aid (or crutch) of someone else's version. But I take your point. There are plenty of newly composed piano music stay unrecorded. Your statement is more accurate when you change the word "unrecorded" to "unperformed". When you record something and distribute it in a mass scale, it has to have commercial value, profitability. Most record labels that are capable of mass distribution aren't interested in newly composed piano music. For the records sake, even Nikolai Kapustin's music aren't all recorded.
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But that wasn't my point. For sure, we will even subconsciously pick up various things after obsessive listening. Even small things, like a wrong rhythm, a crazy tempo, wrongly learned notes. Of course these things can be fixed, but sometimes it's very annoying and difficult.....
One does pick up stuff without knowing it. When I was a teenager, Samson Francois' recording of Ravel's G major concerto was on my turntable often. A bit later, in college, when I first got the score and learned the piece, I had little idea of how much of what I was doing was very much in line with his interpretation (I was aware of copying a few things, though, like the way he handled the trill at the end of the second movement). It was only many years later that I realized how strong and all-pervasive the influence of that recording had been on my playing. In a way, that wasn't such a bad thing, because, being a rural kid from a fly-over state, I wasn't really sophisticated and experienced enough at that point to come up with very good interpretation on my own, I don't think. But still, I didn't listen to that recording for reference while I was actually working on the piece, either.
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I don't think we can really get by without having heard a good part of the rep we learn, especially the older we get and the more rep we get exposed to. Also, in this day and age, hearing recordings are just a couple clicks away from your computer, smart phone, tablet, as well as the more traditional means of listening to recordings.
However, I don't think it's really beneficial to ones musicianship to listen to recordings to help them learn the music/learn how a piece goes, or figure out how to do more artistic stuff. And yes, it does affect your subconscious, especially with how you treat certain nuances. Michelangeli influenced my Bach-Busoni Chaconne for a long time. Gilels for my Ravel Toccata. Zimerman with my Ravel Concerto in G. Took a while to work it out.
However, I had heard these pieces a good deal well before I learned them, and I couldn't have anticipated that I'd learn them a couple years later, so in that case, it's probably unavoidable to a degree.
I do think it's a good idea to listen to a variety of great recordings of great pianists playing various things, especially the rep they were most noted for. More importantly, I recommend listening to non-piano rep (or chamber music/songs with piano).
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