Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Hands together, why is it so difficult?

Very often I am amazed at how difficult it is to put both hands together at anything more than a snail's pace.

Even after thoroughly memorizing and bringing up to speed the hands separately, it takes a very long time before I can manage both hands together.

I guess it must have to do with the limited multi-tasking capabilities of the brain and that developing finger memory is the key to success.

Are there any strategies that can help with this other than starting at a very slow speed and gradually ramping up the metronome until the desired tempo is attained?

Many decades ago, when I was but a small child, my teacher insisted that I learn each hand before putting them together. I hated it! Just like you, I found putting them together meant starting all over in the learning process. So I rebelled, I never practiced my hands separately, I just played them separately for her. The piano is a two handed instrument. The coordination problems of using both hands are exponentially greater than using one hand. All of the work you put into learning each hand has nothing to do with the requirements of playing with both hands.

When I was teaching, one of my rules of practicing or rather commandments was: Thou shalt use both hands all of the time.

There are only three times I will ever play with just one hand: 1) There is nothing for the other hand to play 2)(an expansion on #1) when the music is written for only one hand 3) to clarify details such as fingering, and even this must be checked immediately in a two handed environment.

Save yourself a lot of wasted time and use both hands right from the start. I know this position will offend some, I am sorry in advance.

Consider me offended.

You're treating one problem, that of the beginner's initial difficulties with HT, with a fixed approach that doesn't apply to other problems. One size fits all approaches don't take into account the different demands of the music, nor the different problems a student encounters.

The difficulties a beginner has in coordinating hands are NOT the same difficulties he has getting lesson pieces under his fingers, yet you insist on using the same approach, just because it works for the first.

Once past the initial coordination learning curve, an alert teacher would choose HS or HT based on the demands of the music.

In my experience, AND YOURS MAY VARY! that's why one size fits all approaches are unethical, SATB hymns and similar problems are best approached HT from the beginning, but Two Part Inventions need to be started HS.

I find that learning HS first really helps me put it together HT on most pieces. I can take this approach on a phrase by phrase basis, on the same day, and it doens't cost me any extra time, it saves time in the end.

This is partly because the HS work goes into muscle memory so that when you do the HT part you can partially rely on that, then the more conscious part of your brain can go into supervisory mode concentrating on putting it together rather than having to also supervise working out the basic mechanics of each hand, which by now is already known.

If I have trouble on the HT part I just slow down and go over it again and again and again. Slower if I can't get it. At some speed you can get it. Repeat for while then speed up.

Yes.

(also, I am a big metronome fan, but regard the incremental speedup routine with horror)

There are two routines that can help get past that initial hand coordination learning curve. You can do them with scales or with a lesson piece, preferably with both.

I forget the name for the first one. But you start hands together, but only do two notes, back and forth, rapidly repeating. If it's easy go on to the next two notes; if hard stay there until it gets easy. Do it fast, you can get 100 reps in no time. Go through the whole section two notes at a time. Then start again, 3 at a time, 4, etc. Put your effort into the places that are hard, just touch on the patterns that come easy.

The second routine is dropping notes. Pick a short chunk that you can cycle easily. It might be two measures, or even less in the beginning. But you have to be able to loop them so you start again in tempo, like there was a repeat sign. Start your right hand looping through this, and each time you come by, play one note with the left hand. When that's comfortable, play two notes with the left. You get the picture. Eventually you'll get through the two measures both hands, but you're not done. Now you have to start looping the left hand and add one note with the right, and build it up the same way.

This is simply a lack of practise and experience. It does take time to acquire this skill but once it's there, hands together is really rather easy for most of our music.

You may be leaving it too long. There is a school of thought that requires a complete piece be learnt hands separately before hands together is attempted but this is decidedly not the best way. It is better to work in small, manageable sections, first each hand separately (if required), then hands together before moving on to the next section.

I am in the camp that requires hands separate practise even after a piece can be played hands together so it's usual for me to start hands separately when learning a new piece. Many others only resort to hands separate practise when a section is difficult either for one of the hands by itself or in coordinating the two hands.

It's to do with the way the brain is divided in its control of the body; the right brain controls the left hand and the left brain controls the right hand. Bringing the hands together takes extra brain capacity to coordinate and synchronise the processes.

Finger memory is most definitely not the best way to progress. In fact, you may be better off consciously trying to avoid finger memory in your practise. Play only what you can control mentally. As your practise becomes easier and thinking can relax finger memory will begin to take over but if you intend to perform a piece it will repay you to practise consciously with regularity as well as automatically. Once a piece has ben memorised in finger memory only it is very difficult to go back and make corrections when mistakes or inaccuracies develop from always playing to tempo and not playing consciously.

There are several things going on here and everyone will have different opinions. My strategy is to work in small enough passages to ensure thorough and accurate learning, let the speed increase as the mental effort becomes easier, only when the speed is rising use the metronome to control it, not to dictate the speed.

Use the metronome only for short passages to learn to keep time with strict rhythm. Once your playing is rhythmic you can drop the metronome from your practise of the piece. Speed comes best from not forcing tempo but reducing mental effort from repetitive practise. When the notes are automatic the fingers can move at the speed of brain impulses as long as you can think ahead what notes come next.

Increasing metronome speed before you have the mental capacity to play at that speed (and it's mental capacity not physical ability that limits our speed most) adds pressure, and possibly tension - the worst enemy of speed, and can introduce errors.

Whether you practise a piece in musical sections, in phrases, the harder the music gets the smaller the working unit needs to be. At its smallest it will be in beats.

When practising one beat at a time, begin with the first note of that beat and end on the first note of the next beat. When you can play the music one beat at a time move on to two beats at a time, then three or four at a time up the end of the phrase or whatever unit you're working to.

Time is not important. The more you repeat a passage the faster you'll get. As the thinking time reduces, the time between notes reduces and playing speed increases. Once your fingers get the message, they'll speed up, incrementally or exponentially, without effort so just be patient and wait for this to happen. It doesn't matter how fast you feed in the information or how long it takes. Once the brain knows the correct sequence it will take of it. Trust the system.

Here's how I work my difficult passages. Look at the Minuet in G, BWV 114.

The first beat is D in RH and a G chord in LH.

The second beat is G and A in RH.

The third beat is B and C in RH and A in LH.

The first beat of the next measure in D in RH and B in LH.

Practise the first beat HS up the first note of the next beat. RH D - G. LH, just the G chord. Now put the hands together up to the G in the RH.

Then practise the second beat up to the first note of the next beat. RH G - A - B, LH just the A. Now put the hands together, G - A alone in RH then B in RH and A in LH.

Then practise the third beat up tot the first note of the next beat. B - C - D in RH, A - B in LH. Then put the hands together. RH B and LH A, RH C and finally RH D and LH B.

When you have the three beats accurately go back and do the same but two beats at a time, (beats one and two, then two and three). When they're accurate put all three together.

When they're done move onto the next measure.

The difficulty is having the discipline to practise only one beat at a time, if the problem merits working that small, and not moving on too soon. If you can perfect this technique you will face no insurmountable problem as you progress as long as your fingers can reach the next notes.

It all depends on what pieces you are working on. In general, I would say limit your HS practice, but again, it depends on the repertoire in question.

Like most practice techniques, results may be limited if used improperly.

It's called "Hand Independance"

Check out this instructional video:

Excellent common sense tutorial. Glad I have an iPod Touch LOL. I ended up subscribing to her channel after watching this. Thanks!

I have been talking about this a bunch lately. This is a major problem I'm dealing with. There has been a bunch presented which came from a guy named Bernhard on another forum.

The problem is simple. Sophistication of the nervous system to control all ten fingers independently. We talk of hands. That's cutting the problem short. It's all ten fingers. You worry in piano where your fingers are at and need to go. You don't worry about your hands. They come along because they have to. How many times have you wanted to stretch your hand so your fingers can make that reach? It's the fingers. All ten of them.
Furthermore, with us middle aged adults. We have trained our nervous system to not have that level of sophistication. Maybe differing sophistication with both hands. But nothing like all ten fingers. Not even typing comes close.
Also the muscles need to develop with that sophistication. You have plenty of muscle. It just doesn't respond with the sophistication you need. That comes with development of the nervous system.
Then we get to the brain. The base brain. The top of the nervous system. Lets just call that having to have a major makeover.
Basically.... you're having to grow in a way you never did before.

Rnaple what a great point you make. I have never thought of it that way before, but you're so right.

I have to admit that now I don't have a teacher, I only do a few perfunctory runs through with HS when starting a song. Then it's slowly HT, reinforcing HS occasionally as needed.

My teacher would have a fit if she knew LOL. I'm too impatient otherwise though, and am not under any illusions that my way is better or indeed any good at all, but it works for me.

I had problems too when started playing, had to force my left hand (accords), so they would not copy movements of my right hand (melody).

Played every day for ~8 months many simple Czerny/Burgmuller/Heller pieces (not to master them, but just for variety). This month i noticed that i can play with both hands smoothly, not fast, but at decent speed, change came over time, didn't even notice.

I think that mostly helped me playing pieces like Burgmuller Arabesque/Ballade/Tarantella, that had rhythmical staccato + short melodies. Not long melodies or big accords.

I'm not offended at all but it was impossible for me to venture into some blues/boogie without first getting the motor running in that left hand by itself and then mixing melody/harmony later with the RH.

Thank you all for your insightful comments and sharing some very interesting practice strategies for improving the coordination of the hands.

I'm currently working on Bach invention 15 in B minor and the last movement of Haydn sonata XVI:8 in G major. These are very different pieces but both offer many interesting challenges and help me a lot in building overall technique.

Great instructional video; it is suprising how often HI comes up. Ultimately, the brain is still seeing the action as HT. To better imagine the conundrum, try walking on just one foot. It won't neceaasrily improve your walk. Even drummers integrate. True improvisors develope seemingly randome counterpoint by creating many separate voices on all ten fingers. Once the piece is practiced exactly, and played many times, then it isn't improvising anymore, and the HI is lost.
This may not be important, but to jazz players, the ability to play off the drummer or bass player and create an original blowing line, it is SOP.
The key to better HI might be to practice randome complex rythms in one hand, and choas in the other, then reverse. The brain will at first try to connect the two, but after awhile (long while) it will seem like you will have 2 brains. Ramble on..

Perfect example. It depends on the demands of the piece, so an absolute rule doesn't work.

Practicing something in the LH a zillion times until it becomes so automatic you could do it in your sleep is not quite the same thing as true Hand Independance.

I've tried this. I developed a bass run in the LH in order to play blues scale notes in the RH for improvisation and it worked after about 2 months of practice. The bass run for my LH began playing in auto-pilot and I could focus all my attention to what my RH was doing and it was great! I didn't have to think at all aboot what my LH was doing. It was like someone else playing for me.

When I tried to do something quite different with the LH, all was lost. This is not Hand Independance. Something else must have to be practiced to achieve this. Maybe it's a zillion other things you must play in auto-pilot for the LH. Maybe everything you attempt to do for LH has to go through an auto-pilot routine. I don't know.

The instructional video I posted may be the answer. Doing scales with both hands in the same direction for starters? I find that very hard myself to do. Individually, I can scale perfectly. Together, my thumbs want to cross over together. It's a mind twister for sure but obviously necessary to achieve for a start.

My conclusion is: Both hands have to practice together as one doing different things. Putting one or the other hand in auto-pilot through repetition of the one or the other does not give you true hand independance. It only gives you the ability to do just that one thing independently and that's just an auto-pilot syndrome, not independance. I'm not 100% sure. I don't know but for now that's the conclusion I've made.

Try calling it: automation. When you automate. It's good for one thing and one thing only.

I left something important out ... I'm not particularly talented, but playing some 12 bar no matter what was more important than giving up by not simplifying what I was asking 10 fingers to do.

I'm starting to wonder if an affinity for HS or HT isn't one of those places where different people have different learning modes.

But OTOH, I also feel like zipping together the two parts of a piece studied HS is a skill in itself. I used to have lots of trouble going from HS practice to HT, but now I flow easily back and forth between the two without much thought. So at this point they're very interwoven in my practice.