Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Comment on my technique? And testing slow motion recording

Well, yes and no. "Practice it for hours at a high tempo" would only occur once the person was ready to play it at that tempo. A lot more practice happens under tempo, especially in the beginning stages of learning a new piece.

And what muscles are you referring to that need to be made stronger? Presumably the hypothetical person here is ready to study this piece. That means they have invested in their training up until now, so the muscle used in playing are already strong enough. However, playing is more about tendons and arm weight than it is muscle though.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Why do you say that you do not need to sit up straight? Good posture is essential to good playing (exceptions noted!) and continuous slouching is one of the major contributors to long-term - if not permanent - back pain.

Regards,

I understand. But if you can keep your posture good regardless of bench height then you'll be able to get your body aligned properly. Of course as I mentioned in the other post, we can't tell for sure from the video.

If one possesses the correct technique, there will be no need to use the pinky "heavily", nor will there be a need to practise it for hours at a time. You ask, if there is no training of the muscles to get stronger for playing this etude without fatigue and I've already given you the answer above. Acquiring the necessary technique IS the training.

Bench height is part of keeping your posture at the piano correct. Regardless of how well you think you've kept your posture your body won't be "aligned" properly, if the bench is too high, or too low.

Might I also add that you really should get yourself a good teacher who can help you firsthand with these things, Allan.

Yes, the bench height is a big part of it. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. However there can be adjustment periods where one does need to focus on posture etc. and in the end will have a better result.

I've been making a conscious effort to straighten my back while playing. I meant that if I raise my bench height to increase my arm height and straighten out my upper arm, then it is more difficult to sit up straight since it feels like I'm sitting pretty high.

Anyway -- I will raise my bench one notch while still trying to maintain sitting up straight.

I had a good teacher a month ago who said my posture looked mostly fine. I think I'll try to switch to a piano performance PhD student at my nearby university because they'll have more experience working on advanced repertoire.

On the first part of this, sir, you are wrong. Muscles tire because they are used, not because they are not used.

The second part, however, is correct. One with solid technique minimizes the use of those muscles, so they do not feel as fatigued as someone whose technique causes muscle strain. Typical fatigue is caused by muscles overworking to correct for poor alignment and/or coordination of movements. This is sometimes simplified (even by me) as "lacking proper technique".

So, to comment on another portion of the discussion, it is not necessary to "build up muscles" to play the piano. A certain degree of endurance notwithstanding (and which can be acquired through the regular course of practice), if you are strong enough to press down the keys (which only takes a few ounces of strength), then you need no more muscular strength at all.

This is a great comment from stores, and is worth repeating:


Essentially, I think we all seem to be saying this in one form or another.

I think it is obvious where I was going. I didn't say that the fatigue is a result of the muscles NOT being used. I said it is because those muscles are not yet trained (to carry the workload). I realise that muscles tire, because of use, but, if you've not ever used said muscles in a particular way, fatigue will set in faster. It would seem we're actually on the same page here, but perhaps I should have worded things so as not to be confusing to anyone.

Somewhat OT, in a sense, this is true.

But what is also true is that among virtuosi, men play with markedly more power than women, which is purely down to their greater strength, not superior technique. You can even hear the difference in recordings, e.g. if you compare two famous Tchaik 1 recordings - Van Cliburn's and Argerich's. But it's in piano competitions where this is most obvious, because you get the opportunity to listen to male and female pianists of similar age and accomplishment playing the same pieces, one after the other.

This is not to imply of course, that budding virtuosi should embark on a strength-training regime . But it is true that with regular piano playing of music that involves loud dynamics (especially octaves and chords), you will develop stronger muscles in your forearms, because they are principally responsible for moving the fingers (both flexion and extension). But you'll also develop the small muscles of the hands, as well as the big muscles of the upper arms (which move the forearm).

It's not about "strength", per se, it is about several different elements, one of the most important of which is height (and, related to that, hand span). AFAIK, there's never been a woman pianist on the international circuit as tall as either Van Cliburn or Garrick Ohlsson.

OK then, compare Argerich's Rach 3 with Ashkenazy's.

They're the same height, and have similar hand spans. One is female, the other male. (I'll leave you to guess which is which ).

Whose fortissimos have got more power and heft behind it?

I think height does come into play. However, my former teacher is very small in stature (maybe 5') and her grad teacher told her she would have to lift weights to become more substantial. She doesn't get a huge sound, but it projects well enough.

Anyways, I don't think that size of sound is a big issue with the OP, and building muscle mass is not usually what playing piano is about - especially in the fingers (since there aren't any muscles in the fingers to begin with). Even endurance, when I've played piano for a while my fingers don't get fatigued, it's usually my whole body that loses energy and I just need to eat something to replenish the used energy. My mind probably fatigues more than anything!

I don't want to turn this into a battle of the sexes, but I found an interesting quote by the esteemed Canadian pianist Janina Fialkowska:

"....the vast majority of men have a higher volume level than their female counterparts. There are exceptions, naturally, but on the whole, if a 'normal' male pianist attempts a long, fortissimo octave passage, he'll generally find it easier to do so and will achieve it with a louder sound than a 'normal' female pianist."
(International Piano)

Maybe strength training isn't such a bad idea after all, unless you intend to specialize in the Baroque and early classical.....

It's due to different hand construction between those two pianists. Everyone's hands are different.

Bah!

If you do go to a piano performance DMA student for your next teacher(piano performance people get a Doctor of Musical Arts degree instead of a PhD), make sure that they have experience teaching. There are many who have only been playing piano and have never tried to teach anyone - and those are two different things.

Yeah, I didn't realize that until after I posted, and partly because I had to think about it more as I was responding. I probably could have kept silent on this one and still contributed as much as I did by speaking.


I actually agree with stores on this. I know many women who can get every once of sound out of the piano. I'm sure the biographers in here, who have a quantity of intimate knowledge about major performers that I couldn't begin to touch, would be able to articulate just how many women have been able to play loudly enough to break strings (which is more power than you need, really).