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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: helloworld1] #2167828
10/17/13 05:48 PM
10/17/13 05:48 PM
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Daniel Richter Offline OP
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Originally Posted by helloworld1
Sorry I don't myself clear. Casio PX350 only support On/Half and Off from the midi chart I linked. Only 850 / AP 450/650 support continuous pedal.

Really? I don't know how to interpret that midi chart, so I could not really understand what you mean. Now I get it.

Although what I say is true about that if you send the MIDI message to a Casio PX-350 to press half pedal, the DP will play the half pedal in all range. I know this because I hear the sample for that model in The DPBSD Project.

Anyway, bottom line is that we agree. The pedals of Casio PX-150 and PX-350 don't support progressive/continuous half pedal.

Thanks for the feedback


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2167866
10/17/13 07:55 PM
10/17/13 07:55 PM
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Midi chart can reveal this informaiton, on page 46, it has this state that "Continuous receive only" and the graph is like:
Off -- (Continuous receive only) -- Half -- (Continus receive only) -- Full

Casio did a better job revealing the midi. Yamaha didn't so you have to try in order to figure out.

Some more information about P155,
Source of country: Made in Japan



Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: helloworld1] #2167888
10/17/13 09:05 PM
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Daniel Richter Offline OP
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I see.

Thanks for the info about P155. I will add that.

I dig about Yamaha P-105 and found this:

1. NOTE ON/OFF
Data format: [9nH] -> [kk] -> [vv]
9nH = Note ON/OFF event (n = channel number)
kk = Note number (Transmit: 09H–78H = A-2–C8 /
Receive: 00H–7FH = C-2–G8)
vv = Velocity (Key ON = 01H–7FH, Key OFF = 00H)
Data format: [8nH] -> [kk] -> [vv] (reception only)
8nH = Note OFF event (n = channel number)
kk = Note number: 00H–7FH = C-2–G8
vv = Velocity
2. CONTROL CHANGE
Data format: [BnH] -> [cc] -> [vv]
BnH = Control change (n = channel number)
cc = Control number
vv = Data Range
(1) Bank Select
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
00H Bank Select MSB 00H:Normal
20H Bank Select LSB 00H...7FH
Bank selection processing does not occur until receipt of next
Program Change message.
(2) Modulation (reception only)
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
01H Modulation 00H...7FH
(3) Main Volume
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
07H Volume MSB 00H...7FH
(4) Panpot (reception only)
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
0AH Panpot 00H...7FH
(5) Expression
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
0BH Expression MSB 00H...7FH
(6) Damper Pedal/Sustain
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
40H Sustain MSB 00H...7FH
(6) Damper Pedal/Sustain
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
40H Sustain MSB 00H...7FH
(7) Sostenuto
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
42H Sostenuto 00H...3FH:off, 40H...7FH:on
(8) Soft Pedal
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
43H Soft Pedal 00H...3FH:off, 40H...7FH:on
(9) Harmonic Content (reception only)
ccH Parameter Data Range (vvH)
47H Harmonic Content 00H...7FH

You understand all this? What it means about the half pedal?

Last edited by Daniel Richter; 10/18/13 03:05 AM.

Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168162
10/18/13 01:57 PM
10/18/13 01:57 PM
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The P155's midi implementation also said the same thing, but it turns out to be not continuous. So hopefully somebody else can give out more information. If you don't know how to get it, you can try pianoteq (trial version is OK), and in "Options", it can show all midi events.

Regarding the non-continuos pedal, For build-in sound is totally fine. But it is very noticeable when playing with virtual piano and pedal noise enabled. On P155, I can't avoid the noise no matter how genital I press the pedal. But on NU1, it is truly continuous and I do pedaling much more smoothly.

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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: helloworld1] #2168166
10/18/13 02:01 PM
10/18/13 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by helloworld1
....no matter how genital I press the pedal.

I hope that's a Freudian slip... wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168214
10/18/13 03:58 PM
10/18/13 03:58 PM
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Hi
I have read here:
http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-privia-px-350/150865
that CASIO PX-350 "has sustain resonance, which simulates the sound of all the strings vibrating in sympathy with actually-played notes when the damper pedal is down" (4th paragraph) which sounds to me like "string sympathetic resonance". In your list CASIO PX-350 seems not to have this feature. I don't know, maybe I am wrong but it is worth checking.


Zbigniew

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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Celdor] #2168257
10/18/13 06:47 PM
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Then we have to find someone that have a Yamaha P-105 with FC3 pedal so he can test this continuous half pedal. You know someone that could test this? I don't have that model (at this moment) so I can't.

About the CASIO PX-350 "has sustain resonance" I am quite sure is marketing thing (lie or misleading from manufacturer). I hear the samples from The DPBSD Project from Casio PX-350 and didn't hear any resonance at all. Maybe you can hear it and tell me if you can notes it.

Thanks everybody for the feedback. I think is important we all help each-other giving info that the rest could never get from anywhere else.

Anyone that have one of the models listed here, please do the tests or measurements necessary and post the results.

Last edited by Daniel Richter; 10/18/13 06:48 PM.

Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Celdor] #2168305
10/18/13 10:54 PM
10/18/13 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ZikO
Hi
I have read here:
http://www.keyboardmag.com/article/casio-privia-px-350/150865
that CASIO PX-350 "has sustain resonance, which simulates the sound of all the strings vibrating in sympathy with actually-played notes when the damper pedal is down" (4th paragraph) which sounds to me like "string sympathetic resonance". In your list CASIO PX-350 seems not to have this feature. I don't know, maybe I am wrong but it is worth checking.


That is a mistake...unless Keyboard Magazine is exclusively talking about Damper Resonance. The only Casio Privia PX-X50 model (currently) that features modeled String Resonance is the PX-850. Of the Celviano models, the AP-450 and AP-650 feature modeled string resonance.

For me, that was why the upgrade to the PX-850 was a no-brainer, in comparison to the PX-750 and PX-780. The modeled string resonance algorithm is excellent, and makes a distinct, positive sonic difference, in comparison to the other Privia models. The feedback, string/keyboard interaction and dynamics feels and sounds much more realistic and closer to a true acoustic grand piano sound, IMHO.

This Casio-International Comparison chart of the Privia and Celviano models may be helpful (see middle of page):

Casio International


Last edited by Tritium; 10/18/13 11:10 PM.
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Tritium] #2168307
10/18/13 11:12 PM
10/18/13 11:12 PM
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Yeah, manufactures are using the term "Damper Resonance", confusing people they are talking about "String Resonance".

I am not even sure what they mean when they say "Damper Resonance".


Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168316
10/18/13 11:50 PM
10/18/13 11:50 PM
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Charles Cohen Offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
Yeah, manufactures are using the term "Damper Resonance", confusing people they are talking about "String Resonance".

I am not even sure what they mean when they say "Damper Resonance".


On the PX-350 (and many other DP's), the sound of a _single keystrike_ (one note) is different, depending on whether the damper pedal is "up" or "down".

With the pedal "up" (virtual dampers down, on the strings), the only sound is from the note associated with the key that was struck.

With the pedal "down" (virtual dampers raised), the note has all the open strings resonating with it. The sound is quite different from the "pedal up" sound. I think that's what "damper resonance" means, in the marketing literature.

This is different from the behavior of a synth. With a synth, "pedal down" means:

. . . "when a key is released, don't stop the
. . . sound -- let the note decay slowly".

There is no "damper resonance" on a synth. Notes sound the same, pedal up, or pedal down, as long as the key is held down. [Now somebody will test a MOX6, and find out that its "Grand piano" sound _does_ have "damper resonance" . . . ]

Yes, "string resonance" and "damper resonance" are _very_ different, and the manufacturers are trying to confuse us!

Daniel -- Thank you for doing this work. It is much appreciated.

. Charles

PS -- edit -- I just tested this on my PX-350. The sound (pedal up versus pedal down) is different, but not _very_ different. There's a lot more richness, pedal down, on an acoustic piano.

PPS -- I did some "string resonance" testing, reported in the "DPBSD" thread. Basically, the Roland "SuperNatural" pianos were pretty good, and everything else was pretty bad. "String resonance" is a tricky feature to add, and I suspect it costs a lot of processing time in the sound generator.

Last edited by Charles Cohen; 10/19/13 01:09 AM.

. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168344
10/19/13 02:52 AM
10/19/13 02:52 AM
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I think the DPBSD calls the two main resonance features pedal and key, and their equivalent with some manufacturers is damper and string. As Charles says they are different, and looking in the latest DPBSD updates I see Charles has been testing and reporting on the implementations of key/string resonance. Interesting results. There are other resonances in an acoustic, and some DP's (Roland comes to mind with cabinet sounds) implement them, but hardly likely to be found in this price range of DP's.

Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Charles Cohen] #2168357
10/19/13 04:05 AM
10/19/13 04:05 AM
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So basically damper resonance is really a cheap way to give string resonance, but only if pedal is apply before pressing the note. If pedal is press after note there is no effect. Right? Kind of confusing since both are really the sound of string resonance, but in a unrealistic way.

I listen to sample of PX-350 and can't tell the difference with pedal or no pedal. Maybe is because sample give a few seconds to listen one way or the other so is harder to tell difference. But anyway, "damper resonance" is kinda irrelevant. I suppose is just trying to attract buyers.

I agree that maybe the reason is that real resonance most be very expensive to include.

Thanks for the feedback.

One more thing: since you have a Casio PX-350, can you measure the key dip in the front and the rear of a white key, in mm (millimeters)?

Is the only thing missing in that model info. I post was 10mm (front of the key) and 2mm (rear), but I am not sure. Actually was an estimate. I most confirm or fix that info.

Thanks

Last edited by Daniel Richter; 10/19/13 04:10 AM.

Long time piano player, with 7 years experience working in restaurants and doing gigs in random places.

My project: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Owner of Kawai ES100
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168391
10/19/13 07:01 AM
10/19/13 07:01 AM
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Good point ...
Originally Posted by Daniel Richter
Manufactures are using the term "Damper Resonance", confusing people they are talking about "String Resonance".
I might add: they use the term "digital piano" as if these things really sound like a piano! smile

Me too, on this:
Quote
I am not even sure what they mean when they say "Damper Resonance".
On an acoustic piano, do the dampers resonate??

Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Charles Cohen] #2168410
10/19/13 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
the sound of a _single keystrike_ (one note) is different, depending on whether the damper pedal is "up" or "down".

With the pedal "up" (virtual dampers down, on the strings), the only sound is from the note associated with the key that was struck.

Not exactly.

There are two kinds of sympathetic string resonances in an acoustic piano that DPs may try to simulate (and the terminology is not consistent):

1. Pedal Down sympathetic resonance. Since all strings are undamped when the pedal is down, all strings can vibrate. When you strike a key, other strings will vibrate, with the strings that are most harmonically related to the struck note producing the most sound. A digital simulation may add the same resonance sound regardless of which keys are struck, which is less authentic, but still provides the effect.

2. Pedal Up sympathetic resonance. In this case, without depressing the pedal, the only strings that are undamped are those of other keys that happen to have already been struck and held down prior to the new key being struck. So instead of all strings being able to sympathetically vibrate when you strike a key, the only strings that can vibrate are the ones for the notes that you are holding down. This is more complicated to simulate, since the sound must be different for every combination of played notes. (Nitpicking clarification: since the strings at the top of an acoustic piano are not damped, they always have the potential to generate sympathetic sound, even when the pedal us up.)

Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168589
10/19/13 03:46 PM
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What a useful and helpful resource this thread is.

Down the road, a "best digital" under $2000 might be of interest as well.

It's a moving target so this is a tough job but what a great start by analyzing the sub-$1000 market.

Great job!


Kawai KG-5. Korg SP-250. Software pianos: Garritan CFX, Ivory II, Ivory Am D, Ravenscroft, Galaxy Vintage D, Alicia's Keys, et al.
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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Daniel Richter] #2168681
10/19/13 07:56 PM
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Quote

One more thing: since you have a Casio PX-350, can you measure the key dip in the front and the rear of a white key, in mm (millimeters)?


10 mm, 2 mm. You estimated very well.

. Charles

PS -- with those numbers, I see why "lever length" -- from the pivot to the front of the key -- is an important number. I wonder what it is for a typical grand piano? a typical upright piano? Is it one of the differences between a "good" DP action, and a "bad" DP action?

PPS -- I do not want to hijack this thread -- sorry . . .


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: anotherscott] #2168684
10/19/13 07:59 PM
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Quote
. . . 2. Pedal Up sympathetic resonance. In this case, without depressing the pedal, the only strings that are undamped are those of other keys that happen to have already been struck and held down prior to the new key being struck. So instead of all strings being able to sympathetically vibrate when you strike a key, the only strings that can vibrate are the ones for the notes that you are holding down. This is more complicated to simulate, since the sound must be different for every combination of played notes. (Nitpicking clarification: since the strings at the top of an acoustic piano are not damped, they always have the potential to generate sympathetic sound, even when the pedal us up.) . . .


That's what I (and several others) are calling "string resonance".

I'd never thought about the "high-treble" resonances caused by undamped strings. You're right, they're always present. Maybe that's one of the reasons for the "rich" sound of an acoustic piano, compared to a DP.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Charles Cohen] #2168758
10/20/13 01:14 AM
10/20/13 01:14 AM
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The only reason they`re not damped on an acoustic, is mechanical difficulty to do so. Some pianos have loads of undamped strings at the top end.

It`s not a virtue!


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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Charles Cohen] #2168759
10/20/13 01:18 AM
10/20/13 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote

One more thing: since you have a Casio PX-350, can you measure the key dip in the front and the rear of a white key, in mm (millimeters)?


10 mm, 2 mm. You estimated very well.

. Charles

PS -- with those numbers, I see why "lever length" -- from the pivot to the front of the key -- is an important number. I wonder what it is for a typical grand piano? a typical upright piano? Is it one of the differences between a "good" DP action, and a "bad" DP action?

PPS -- I do not want to hijack this thread -- sorry . . .


That`s similar to GHS Yamaha. A sectional view of both actions verifies this. Although undesireable for obvious reasons, I `m of the opinion other factors are of greater consequence and can result in problems whilst playing certain (fast, awkward) passages.

I`m not a fan of GH.


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$ [Re: Charles Cohen] #2168766
10/20/13 01:38 AM
10/20/13 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Quote

One more thing: since you have a Casio PX-350, can you measure the key dip in the front and the rear of a white key, in mm (millimeters)?


10 mm, 2 mm. You estimated very well.

. Charles

PS -- with those numbers, I see why "lever length" -- from the pivot to the front of the key -- is an important number. I wonder what it is for a typical grand piano? a typical upright piano? Is it one of the differences between a "good" DP action, and a "bad" DP action?

PPS -- I do not want to hijack this thread -- sorry . . .


You might find this useful/interesting

http://www.randyhoexter.com/?p=520


I estimate that the Key Dip for a Yamaha C3 is 10mm front, 5mm rear.



willf
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