Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards KAWAI VPC1, YAMAHA CP4 or NUMA Concert, which one to choose?

Dear all,
Hi, I'm new to this forum and I live in China. Just like my other Chinese peers, I took piano lessons for a year or two while I was in primary school and then gave up to the school work.
Since now I am in college, it seems that I could preserve some time for my self and I decided that I shall devote them to piano learning. So I am sort of an adult beginner to a certain extend. And to restart learning, I have to get myself a digital piano. I currently use a cheap keyboard featuring fatar tp40m(not sure) keybed, which is a little bit too noisy and does not support half-pedaling, and most importantly I feel difficult to do even scales or fast repetitions on this board while I have no problem on the acoustic upright I have my lessons on. So I decided to upgrade.
After months of searching, I've narrowed my options down to three,as is stated in the title, now the question is, which of them to choose?
Here are my thoughts about these three instruments.
KAWAI VPC1
pros
-long pure wooden keybed including the black keys, three sensors,let-off simulation.
-Can send out note-off values
-No sound, but have accredited touch curves-I just bought a pianoteq stage with bluthner add-on to coupe with my current practice keyboard
-Triple pedal unit that supports continuous damper pedaling.
cons
-this model does not sell in mainland China, nor in Hong Kong, I will have to make the purchase from outside of China, so the cost for shipping will be irrational, given its weight( Currently I have the overall price of $2800 including shipping).
-The console type KAWAI CA15 with same keybed is officially available in China, and is only about $1600 including tax and shipping. So I am not sure whether it will be considered psychiatric to pay the extra $1200 for those approved touch curves. By the way, if it were not for the room space limitation of school dorm, the KAWAI CA15 would be a no-brainer for me.
-Some one in a Chinese forum complain that the bottoming of RM II GRAND being too soft(on a KAWAI CA13)
YAMAHA CP4
pros
-the graded NW keybed, with three sensor and let-off simulation(which i am not sure, correct me if you will)
-light weight, so the cost for international shipping will be much more reasonable.
-built-in sound generators with the well renowned yamaha AP sound, which i do like in the demo. And I can play it immediately when I feel like playing, rather than waiting for my old PC to start up.
-comes with a FC3 foot pedal unit, which send out continuous value.
cons
-Still not(yet) introduced into the Chinese market, so that if i decide to buy it from abroad, I risk transportation damage, voided warranty and some other issues.
-no music stand.
Numa Concert
pros
-TP40 WOOD keybed with three sensors.
-Officially available in China.
-auto learning touch curves
Cons
-no let-off simulations.
-do not send out note-off values(not sure, please correct me )
-comes with a VFP-2 foot pedal which is a switch pedal.
Some of you may claim that let-off simulation is nonsense on a DP but for me it is important. Because once I tried on a KAWAI RX-1 and the "clicking" induced by let-off mechanisms do helped in controlling.
And as I will mostly work with classical pieces, might I ask which one of the above is the most suitable, in terms of touch and feel, and the ease to transfer back to acoustics-I take lessons on an acoustic upright.
Thank you very much for your help and please forgive me for my poor English.

Best regards.

I don't know much about the rest of your questions, but if there is the slightest possibility that you could accomodate CA15, paying extra $1200 for the VPC1 touch curves is just ridiculous! A touch curve is essentially only 256 numbers that anyone who already has VPC1 can send you in an email.
Another option could be to wait a few months (hard, I know) because it is possible that Kawai will launch a successor of MP10 with most likely the same action as VPC1. But this is only educated guess made by others in this forum, it may not happen anytime soon. This, go for ES-7, or go for the CP4 is probably what I would do.

For pure piano practicing I would suggest you buy the CA-15, since the VPC1 is either not available, or costs a ridiculous amount of money (when imported).

You could hook up the CA-15 and control any software piano you like using the MIDI-IO (if you have a MIDI interface, otherwise you could get one). But preferably you start out with the internal piano sound as well, since they are not bad. At least you get the absolute best keybed of the choices you mention.

Yeah, I agree with the guys above. Get the CA-15. Don't even consider the VPC1 if it costs a lot more.

Actually the CP40 might be good or it might not. No forum members that I know of own it yet.

Fatars stuff (Numa Nero, etc) doesn't have all that great a reputation around here, but that is based on past products, not the Numa Concert. So it's tough to definitely place it. Most of us are much more familiar with Yamaha and Kawai products than StudioLogic.

I would just go for CA-15 as well. While VPC1 touch curve is great ( just recently got mine) it's not worth spending $1200 over, and considering you may need to spend the extra to get a pair of quality monitors and external sound card that's easily 500 extra. I say buy the CA-15, use the extra budget buying a decent piano sampler. Sampler such as Ivory2 allow you to modify the touch curve and you will be able to get a touch curve comparable to VPC1 by adjusting manually on your computer.

David, just to correct one thing, you said that the CP4 doesn't have a music rest. While it's true that it doesn't ship with one, you can buy the compatible CP-Rest as an additional purchase. It's nothing special but is nice and wide so it can easily accommodate three-four A4 pages at a time.

David, for an individual wishing to focus on piano playing, within a relatively compact space, and as someone who already own Pianoteq, the VPC1 is undoubtedly the best choice.

Unfortunately, I do not have a great deal of involvement in Kawai's overseas sales and distribution, especially in the China market. Of course, I would love to see the VPC1 introduced into this region, and I believe it could be a rather successful product as there are a no doubt many players in a similar position to yourself. However at the current time, the VPC1 is unavailable.

Purchasing and from overseas is one option, however the shipping cost (from the US?) is clearly a considerable barrier. You may know that the VPC1 was recently launched domestically in Japan, so it *may* be possible to buy from a retailer in this country. Again, shipping charges will still be higher than if the product was purchased locally, but should be less than from outside of Asia - assuming the retailer agrees to sell the instrument to you.

Please note that as a Kawai employee, this is not an option that I would officially recommend, largely due to the lack of warranty and servicing on instruments purchased from another country, and the fact that you would be liable for any damage that may occur during shipping.

I've yet to try the CP4, but by all accounts is a very capable stage piano. It'S very lightweight and portable, seems to have quite a good keyboard action, and a strong selection of good quality piano sounds. However, it's undoubtedly a gigging-oriented stage piano, and is therefore perhaps less suitable for 'pure' piano playing.

I'm afraid I only have very brief experience with Numa boards. They appear to offer reasonably good value for money...

This leave the Kawai CA15. The same keyboard action as the CA15, with built-in sounds and speakers, and still the option to connect using MIDI to software instruments such as Pianoteq in the future. I understand that space may be limited in your dorm room. However, the CA15 is not that much larger than a VPC1 sitting on a good quality stand, and obviously has the amplifier and speakers etc. built in.

So in summary, the VPC1 is undoubtedly the best option, however as this model is unavailable in China (without paying the added expensive of shipping and importation fees), the CA15 is the next best alternative.

Kind regards,
James
x

Apart from the fact that I suggested you buy the Ca15 earlier in the thread , I would like to add that its a bit of a shame that the Numa Concert gets so little attention and that there seem to be no users of the board posting anywhere on the web. The keybed is no RM3-II , but certainly not bad at all and the main grand piano sound (Steinway) is really good with nice resonance effects, long decays and a good and fluent dynamic range. I think it's one of the best grand AP sound on a hardware stage piano out there. Unfortunately the rest of the sounds don't seem to be on par with this first preset and the overall functionality and user interface is quite basic. Combined with the shady reputation SL concerning communicating with end customers / providing after sales service and updates , it remains a wild guess if you would be happy with the board in the long run, or regret it. If SL could take the marketing and customer approach into the 21st century things could be different. Starting with a rep in these fora answering questions and providing information (the SL version of KAWAI James, mike martin ;-)

Hi Hookxs，
I wish I could accomodate a CA15 but unfortunately there is absoulutely no space for a console type DP in my room, as I am sharing a very limited area with other 2 roomates. Actually, I am not using a stand for my current keyboard instead I place it on my desk.
In terms of ES7 and CP4, I wonder whether anyone could tell me about how they compare to VPC1 in terms of touch and feel.
Thank you very much for the reply!
Cheers!

David

Yes, that is the million-dollar question. I am very interested in this, too:-) Just FYI, you seem to be very interested in wooden keys, ES7 does not have wooden keys and it is probably for everyone to decide, how much this influences the feel.

Is the CA15 available in the US? I'm in Northern California and have not seen one.

btcomm, no the CA15 is not available in the US.

Kawai America instead markets the CE220.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hi Aidan,
Thanks for the input. Actually I checked it out in TAOBAO, which is a Chinese version of eBay I believe, and found it to be around $80. Quite expensive for a piece of plastic, however a "must have" for piano learners like me.
I just wonder why yamaha just don't include it in the box, it won't cost a lot anyway.

Cheers!

David

Hi everyone,
First I have to apologize for the delay in reply, partially due to difference in time zones and part for the difficulties I have in writing in English.

I noticed most of you suggest that I should go for a CA15. However I have to say it will be impossible for me to accommodate a console type DP in the room, as is mentioned above, my DP now sits on my desk, because I don't have the place for the stand.

I'd like to thank Kawai James specially for your sincere and detailed reply, and yes you got it right, I inquired about the price from a US-based retailer, then ended up giving up to the unreasonable shipping fee. Thanks for your remind, I am contacting with a dealer in Japan to see if they could ship one for me. One thing that bothers me is that as the net weight of VPC1 is 29.5 kg, the gross weight might exceed the upper limit of 30 kg set by EMS. I am still waiting for the confirmation from the dealer, will know about it tomorrow.

So the followings are the steps that I would take:
Step one-see if shipping a VPC1 from Japan is viable, if yes, go with it.
Step two-get a CP4 from the same dealer, but might have to save up for one more month or two as it is about $400 more expensive.
Step three-if none of the above is viable, go for a numa concert. One thing that's worth mentioning is that the wholesaler of studiologic in China is Pearl River, the largest piano manufacturer in our country, and that the studiologic products have not yet yielded any QC problems in here, I think I could live with that.

And one more thing, to Hookxs, yeah, I am keen to wooden keybeds, be it a pure marketing slogan or not.

Finally thank you all again for your posts. I will let you know what I finally get.

Cheers!

David

Also seems like you are not considering any Roland boards. How about the FP80 with you want a nice slab-factor piano?

Hi gvfarns,
It didn't even occur to me before that I have that option, LOL. Well the FP80 is about $2200 and I think I will give it a try.
However I don't like the SN sounds very much judging from video clips on youtube, although I have yet to try them out in person.

Cheers

David

I am afraid there goes FP80.

HI, I tried out the cp5 at GC Sat. The action seemed the same as CP5 only graded, so that means its a great action, However I prefer a nongraded so when I do a lick and play all the way down to the bottom with my right hand with some fancy playing , I dont want to be slowed down by unnecessary weight at he low end of the keyboard, but I know some pianist want it like the real thing. This action is silky smooth and makes it feel easy to play. The CFX to me was disappointing. They need to sample that one again because they failed to capture the beautiful tone of their flagship acoustic piano. Although it sounds big, Its kind of brittle. The CFIIIs is better, but the real gem is the S6, which is the third piano sound , It has a great woody tone in the upper mid section which is where most soloing is done . Excelant job Yamaha, I would of bought it for the S6 alone but I actually play more Rhodes and I currently play a S90 and I love the Rhodes but the CP4 Rhodes has good tone, but lacks the lushness of S90s and Motifs. I will check it out again to see if they can be tweeked somehow, but not getting my hopes up to much because it probably would have already been done if possible , For mostly acoustic piano , this is the best one riht now. There was a RD700nx next to it and it sounded mushy and dull compared to the CP4, I wasnt impressed with the ES7 either

In terms of sound/action or anything else in particular?

Hi dear all，
I just made my order and it is a VPC1.
I've been shifting between VPC1 and CP4 in the past two days, and finally I decided that I want no more hesitation and made the call by a coin.
I ordered it from a Japanese web shop but through an international dealer, so the overall price is rather high. I can't give the exact number though, because the international dealer will not be able to calculate the shipping fee until VPC1 arrive at their place.
So I am pretty much anxious to know about the shipping fee, and starting to worry about transportation damage.

Will keep you guys updated, please pray for my VPC1.

Thanks.

David