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Is this fourths- fifths temperament with thirds-sixths checks, a standard temperament, what do you think of it? How fine is the result ?

Unfortunately he is not speaking English so I cannot understand how he tempers the a4-a3 octave.

a4 > a3
a4-a3 > e4
a4-a3 > d4
d4 > g4
g4 > c4
c4 > f4
f4 > a#3
a#3 > d#4
d#4 > g#4
g#4 > c#4
c#4 > f#4
f#4 > b3

Hi,

The piano tech who did this temperament was not completely satisfied with it cause there was a lot of noise from people of stage crew.
Ideally having had silence on the stage the temperament could end up good.

All the best

Ivan

It is one of the standards, any progression can be used.
Many tune from f3 to f4

A3 A4 create slightly faster 3ds 6ths, so not widely used, but it is accurate.
The quality of the result depend of the quality of intervals (and of course of the quality of pin setting)

In the end you can tune the temperament from any note.
Today I tuned a vertical Sauter in a small theater. Was not tuned since 12 months.

No change in pitch, I find the A3 good, A4 a hair low, the rest about right. Basses a hair low)
I tuned directly the intervals from D3 without first octave, and when I had to tune A4 it fall in place at the wanted pitch.

But that piano does not go out of tune despite the place which is not heated generally. Piano Sauter 36 years old.

Many strings (the shorter segment, right pin) I had to push the pin back in tension without moving it. I did "turn" (really move) about 50 pins for the whole piano.

In 90 minutes, I did a fast voicing (about 2-15 jabs each Hammer, they are impregnated and get firm when played) and that tuning.

Using my cell phone for pitch, a tuning lever, a mute and a Paps mute.

The singer listened while I was tuning the treble, asked my my card and complained for the lack of good tuners...

Btw it is easy to tune treble octaves with only one string muted (above octave 6> it goes a little faster.

With some training it should be possible to do that since octave 6 or even lower, but as the notes ring long it is not so agreeable as in the treble.

No strip mute, unison tuned immediately.

I am pretty sure I could not do so when my first reflex was to open the VT100 to "analyze" (not analyse!) the piano, the thinking and state of mind are terribly different.
With an ETD you do not choose to he speed of thirds, you cannot decide to open a little more an octave, .

The analysis of piano evolving was interesting but difficult to really relate to the conditions, temperature, moisture, . Pianos get out of tune always similarly anyway.

Because I hear beats speed differences, size of octaves doubles triples, ... an ETD tells me that that section is 4 cts low, it is not as evident as listening to 10ths 17ths, etc.

Ideally, of course but a good tuner will tune with people around and noise, up to octave 6, then it begin to be really annoying.

I can tune while listening the radio, in mediums.

For a concert I also can stop and ask for 15 minutes of quietness. Harsh pianos are harder to tune.

Thanks Olek.

Then, how would the fourths-fifths F3-F4 temperament progression be ?
Which note would be tuned first? A4? And which notes next etc...?

In that F3 F4 temperament, a stack of M3 is tuned first from F3 to A4.

This make corrections of mistakes easier as the intervals can be tuned in small groups around each of those 3M

less attention (if any) is given to the 5ths and the 4ths when tuning that temperament.

The intention is to obtain an ideal progression of M3 (and M6)

The 4ths and 5ths are supposed to be OK when it is finished.

In fact there is often some discrepancies, often in the C G and FC 5ths.

I prefer temperaments tuned directly on a cycle of 5ths as they are more logical, musically speaking.

But this is often considered as a beginner's temperament and when enough mastering of the tuning lever is gained the M3 stack is learned. (that is how tuning was learned when I was younger)

leaving the false impression that a good precise tempering cannot be obtained with the 5ths cycle.

The M3 stack divide that first M10 in even spaces (there is a +-4 for 5 ratio in beat progression between 2 contiguous M3) so some precision is expected, (fast beating intervals have less leeway) but there is yet lot of margin for mistakes.

But it generally helps well to have acceptable slow beating intervals.

5ths can bee too large without noticing, in that method as with the other.

The book written by Rick Butler, RPT, is an excellent guide and help to understand the basics of piano tuning.

Aural Piano Tuning (A Practical Guide) by Rick Butler RPT

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598720449/sr=8-45/qid=1155824344/ref=sr_1_45?ie=UTF8

All the best,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCKUzNpicGg

The tech is too much stressed there, may be due to the camera.

I don't know if he speaks English but he write it, he was supposed to give me a few tricks on how to tune correctly. I am still waiting

Many tuners are not taking enough attention to the amount of stress the pin is subjected to at the moment it is "unglued" from its settled position, and "turn" the lever too fast.

There while he basically do some pin setting he have to play mostly with pin torsion and stress, varying the amount of torque obtained that is in the end a little different from pin to pin.

He tunes "from above" it is clearly seen when he tunes C# F#.
A very standard technique.

(long tuning tips tend to favor that method)

That make tunings that can hold well for a concert, but need to be done again too soon.

I do not know the history for that particular piano, but if the tuner is tuning it regularly the piano could be more stable.

I suppose concert techs will agree with me, even a principle is to not speak of other works, particularly if it is acceptable.

The thing is to "tune" the bottom of the pin, so the amount of variations in upper part of the pin stress is limited.

Predicteable pianos are of course easier and allow to have some confidence, turn the pin faster and "know" more or less what happen in the bottom.

Some pianos can be tuned without any attention to the bottom posture of the pin, but long term stability is not obtained that way.

P.S. I admire the small motion of the wrist to create the beating very artistic !

Yes Isaac, the tech looks a bit stressed...

For what I see and hear... Beyond "hammer technique" and "method" (procedure), the problem is still beat-progression. No matter the method, a tech must be able to recognize the correct (ET) progression, be it 3ds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths or octaves.

Then, what that video demonstrates is that the tuning is the nth UT, :-) but I cannot say what the tuner's bottom problem is, if beat-perception or - more simply - self acceptance.

One thing is confirmed: we are not sharing a "standard" :-)

Regards, a.c.
.

Hello, Alfredo , Would you still consider it in the "accepteable" range for a concert ?

that F4 is a hair out off my own limits, but having to work in noise and talking to a camera does not help. We also know that temperament mistakes can be corrected or "hidden" when expanding the temperament zone (that will be difficult there to obtain a really perfect result, however)

A quiet attitude is also opening the ears and allow to be less disturbed by noises (up to the guy who talk loud or the drill in background, where if it happened once again I would have stopped and ask for quieteness)

I believe that many tuners lack self confidence at some point, noticeably because the kind of UT obtained despite an accepteable method to "lay the bearings" .

Possibly some notes moved , also, as too much expectations are put in the upper part of the pin and the friction at bearing points.

I would put any tuner in a not so comfortable position to know something can go wrong without knowing why.

Anyway the usual quietness of the piano tuner is not very apparent there and it can be heard. Comes with time/experience and meeting the good persons too

All the best

I am not sure whether you are advocating the F3_F4 temperament or the cycle of fifths.

Anyway, I came across this sentence in one of Bill Bremmer's documents:

"Since ET is an Atonal Temperament, using a pattern which follows the Cycle of 5ths is not advisable. It will
inevitably lead to uneven M3’s which give the temperament a certain color."

What do you think of this perspective?

Understanding what tuning is supposed to sound like is more important than the method that is used to get there. One should always check the temperament and make corrections before tuning the rest of the piano.

And the following is from Chang's book.

"I present here the simplest ET tuning scheme. More accurate algorithms can be found in the literature (Reblitz, Jorgensen). No self-respecting professional tuner would use this scheme; however, when you get good at it, you can produce a useable ET. For the beginner, the more complete and precise schemes will not necessarily give better results. With those complex methods, a beginner can quickly get confused without any idea of what he did wrong. With the method shown here, you can quickly develop the ability to find out what you did wrong....
You have just done a "circle of fifths". The miracle of the circle of fifths is that it tunes every note once, without skipping any within the A3-A4 octave!"

Do you agree that self-respecting tuners won't use the circle of fifths?

Hakki, sorry but I have lost interest in those affirmations some time ago (after hearing tuning samples , mostly).

Any tuning sheme can be used as soon as the intervals are checked and what I said that different sequences provide tendencies.

It is a mistake to think that only M3 or only slow beating intervals are to be tuned. Then it is probably harder to learn to be precise with slow beating intervals so to get progressive fast beating ones.

when the M3 stack is the foundation it is used as reference mor ethan it should, at the expense of the slow beating ones, but certainly not all tuners using that sequence do so.

For instance the size of the first octave can be also checked with 4ths and 5ths (that is not part of the sequence usually)

The 4ths and 5 th gives a control with fast beating interval of 6th later than the sequence based on fast beating intervals.

None of them are error free.

The best tuners I heard and see are very attentive to 5ths and 4ths (and they obtain progressiveness for the other intervals)

Do you want to learn to tune ? there is some ear training (not too difficult in my opinion, but depend of the guidance and of the student)

and there is training to tune the note exactly where you want and that take a little time.

But with proper guidance and daily training one can learn to tune correctly in 2 years, sometime less.

Pianists can learn to correct unisons.

Proper guidance is what help the most. Few tuners are gifted to explain well and many false ideas are running around.

Consider also that the tone expected can differ somehow depending of the continent, the culture, etc.

The tendency some people have to put their name on something increase the noise/signal ratio when one want to learn tuning, unfortunately.

Hi Isaac,

I am still trying to understand what is "acceptable" for a concert.. :-) If that tuner is given concert jobs, I'd believe that yes, that is acceptable...




Ok, let's be clear... Saying that ET is "Atonal" can only be a consequence of ignorance. In fact, having a "tonal centre" (like any UT that may favor some tonalities) should not imply that you cannot change the "centre", which is what the ET "idea" had addressed. So, in case, we should talk about ET being "Pan-Tonal", since every tonality can be played at ease. Then, if I think about that, I believe that nobody has been able to tune the first ET ever, perhaps that is why they still release such statements :-)





Hakki,

In general, if you want to learn tuning you need practice. Have you started?

Regards, a.c.
.

It may probably talk about what is learned or was learned, when you begin.
Tune 5ths and 4ths , and when you find the "wolf" in the last interval, go back and find where the mistakes are.

It is important to learn the puzzle of intervals, some beat faster when enlarged some beat faster when reduced. each new note impact all kind of intervals so the mor eyou understand the relations the easier it is to check the new note added.

But anyway, after having learned to produce no beats between 2 strings, or 3 (yet not absolutely possible in theory, but the beating due to extinction curve and mismatches between strings are so slow it is not considered)

the tuner is introduced to octaves which are also beat free in the explanations but with a more noticeable beating of the same kind than the unison (those beats are blended in the natural extinction curve of the notes, they are not heard as such)

then the 5th and the 4th, that can also be beat free but now they are tuned tempered so that make the same thing than the beginner pianist who learned to play on white keys and is said that the sharps too are used

Now the gifted tuner, or musician tunes tempered 5ths naturally , and hear coloration, or activity of those intervals more easily.

Anyway I bet that some tuners arenot much at ease with them, and are happy to be introduced to the use of the strong, very noticeable, fast beats of the M3 and other fast beating intervals.

Progressiveness in M3 reduce the error margin of slow beating intervals so they are left aside by some tuners, and it is hard enough to obtain that perfect progression of FBI not to bother also with the slow ones...

Musically, there is also a kind of harmonic behavior of a perfectly progressive FBI tuning, that satisfy the mind of the listener, for instance for complex jazz chords.

The 5th came back in the picture relatively recently, via the discovering that when they are audibly tempered the tuning sound more alive.

I talk here of what I could read on forums, as the good tuners that still tune since 20 30 years and more did not bother much with this or that, as they tune all intervals, and on a decent piano the things fall in place without so much hassle.

As it is absolutely impossible to tune precisely without mastering of the whole segments of the wire and tuning pin, I believe that some imprecision often show up in the process, so many tuners rely on fast beating intervals, and ETD, knowing the end result will be more "accepteable" than if they used the 5ths coloration to tune in first place.

Even very experienced tuners can suddenly understand a new way to install stability and to strengthen the tone, and that happens. idem for tempering and expending temperament. It will be difficult to find public witnessings of that but it happens privately and it is not a concern between tuners (sometime

It may sound surprizing but many experienced tuners know that the piano have to give a little of himself for their job to be really nice. Not really knowing what happens to the last 1 -1.5 cts between the moment the note was tuned and the moment the tuning is completed is not really reassuring.

SO many count on their vast experience and "knows" it will "do the trick" for the next concert (eventually)
the almost inaudible cts variations are not considered as a problem but that is the way it goes.

The same happen with the piano "falling in place" with the final tuning. The pitch yet is moving due to temperature change, the most progressive and even the tuning will be laid the more it will accept those changes.

Also the so called "beats of M3 or other intervals" are only precise if you use a tone generator, they are way too lively to maintain a real eveness of speed in time, so we work on that floating floor and what I like with some way of tuning is to expect the piano to "grip" on its own consonance enough, you tune then using the level of energy availeable, more than with pitches. Above a certain level of precision this begin to be perceived . That coloring of the harmony can be more or les present depending of the way the intervals are managed.

It can push on warmness and deepness, or it can push on brightness and clearness .

The characteristics of the piano and the ones of the room also change the result a lot.

But I pretend that a piano can be considered "playeable" (the ear is not agressed too much) as soon some even and progressive scheme is attained, be it with UT and more limited tonalities, or with the different ways ET can be attained.

In the end I think we are lucky that pianos have unevenesses and "defects". as they allow more variations than perfection.

they oblige the tuner to balance between what he expects and what the piano can offer, so the tuner can use a little musicality himself.

Best regards - it s nice to see pianists interested.

Olek, alfredo thanks for the replies.

I would be delighted to be able to tune my piano and get some good reviews from the pros here when I present te recording of the tuning.

But that seems near impossible to happen, firstly because there isn't any mentor around my area that would be capable of teaching me the correct way of tuning, besides at the end of my learning process of 2 years my piano probably would have gone to the junkyard, because there isn't any other piano that I can practice on.
And finally I don't think it is worth spending 2 years just to tune my own piano.

So, no, I can't learn to tune the piano. I only correct some unisons (even then there is a risk that I could loose the tuning pins).

But, I would be very happy to learn to evaluate a tuning whether it was good or not.

That is a very keen attitude. You will not put your tuning pins at risk at all if you manipulate the lever in the plane of rotation, you may also have discovered that the idea is not to "turn" the pin, but to twist it unless the bottom moves, the action of tuning being prompted by the playing hand.

Now the tuner need to learn to feel the variations of tension in the pin and the different wire segments, and that is not easy, tuning always the same piano limits the learning a lot and may be detrimental to the piano indeed.

when the torque in the pin and the upper segment of string raise, we perceive more and more resistance, then it drops because the speaking length moved. It would be nice to learn to tune without listening, but most beginners focus too much on pitches and the speaking length , wanting a result on that part, while it is moreimportant to have a balanced tension between the pin and the upper segment of wire, the whole being apt to retain the speaking lenght form moving .

Bisic instructions say that the pin CANNOT be twisted back once the note is tuned. Now it should not store enough energy to raise the tension later, so learning that equilibrium is not so easy (particularly when you want it to happen without bending the pin, to simplify)

You may want to learn to only focus on the sensations provided in the lever when you slowly add stress.

Learn to feel and appreciate the elasticity of the pin (and the one of the pinblock)

On a perfectly settled tuning pin, you can move the lever (twisting the upper part of the pin) about 5° and even more without any change in the pin setting, (and no change in tone) the lever can be pushed the other direction and you perceive a strong braking.

On strongly settled tuning pins I can turn the lever about 10° and the pin do not move. This is probably mostly due to the braking friction obtained by the wood fibers all oriented the other direction, and under pressure from the pin.

The torque coming from the upper segment of wire is "distributed" on a large part of the pin by the active twist installed at tuning moment. (could be 1-2° I suggest)

Best regards

Thanks Olek for the detailed explanation.

Of course it is beyond my ability to grasp all the things you are saying about the tuning pin and wire.

During the last tuning I asked about the pin setting to him and he said that in order to find the spot for the pin to stay, he was listening (or feeling) a "tick" which indicated that the bottom portion of the pin has moved. And if that spot lined up with the ETD he left the pin there. If not he would go flat and try again.

Is this the way you are describing?

yes he is right the tick signals that the pin begin to move, but sometime, no tick , one have to feel that in the lever)

if the etd shows that the note is not at the good pitch yet it is unnecessary to lower the pitch , but it is a precaution that allow to perceive well the moment the bottom have moved.

if only a very little motion is necessary the tuning lever technique differs a little, ideally when you hear the tick you know how much you need to "turn" the pin to have the bottom in the wanted position. So it can be only the beginning of the motion.

the main problem we face is that, when the tick happens the pin is twisted on itself so the pitch heard at that moment is way higher than the one we want (as long we hold the lever)
Then when we release the pressure on the lever, the pin untwist frankly. I suppose this is when he checked the ETD.
BUT (!) there may be yet some twist inside the pin at that time, one need to verify how much, without moving the bottom of the pin.

the tuner have to "unwind" that torsion, if not it will go lower by itself first immediately then a little more, when the piano will play.

many instructions say to leave the pin in a "neutral position"

that mean "unstressed" .

but the pin (and pinblock) is in any case stressed by the wire, so a balance have to be find between the stress of the wire an the stress of the pin.

judging how stressed is the pin is more difficult than just tuning and treat the pin as a rigid neutral element.

the strong setting mean there is an equilibrium of tension between the wire and the pin. this is obtained by different means, depending... some bend the pin a little while lowering the pitch so some stress is stored in the pin.

some twist the pin back , then bend it a little high to pull on the wire and leave some extra stress.

I try to judge how much twist the pin can accept to provide that tension without untwist later.

in any case a tuning lever put on the tuning pin cannot push it counterclockwise really.

there are of course more finesses than that crude description.

The "tick" is triggered by the playing hand, it is supposed to allow the tiniest motion of the tuning pin, if the stress was added slowly enough and no more is added when the tick is heard.

the "upper segment" of wire is the portion between the tuning pin and agrafe, or capo.

It is easy to understand this portion have to be at last as much tense as the speaking lenght. if not some balance will happen at a moment or another and the string will change pitch. We install some added tension there, that fight the added resistance when the note is played strong and more tension than usual go past the agrafe.


The pin "twist" is stored energy