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"Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
#2164663 10/10/13 10:57 PM
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I want to learn all of the Inventions and Sinfonias and am having trouble figuring out the various mordants and trills, on which there seems to be vast differences of opinion. I have the Glenn Gould recordings and really like them, except he just sort of does what he wants, and emulating him (even if I could) probably isn't the place to start in terms of learning the basics.

... For learning a more traditional, straight, conventional, non-eccentric approach to this music, can anyone recommend a particular pianist & recording for listening guidance?

Thanks in advance.


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2164683 10/11/13 12:21 AM
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I have no recommendation in answer to your question. However, I cannot recommend that you learn anything solely by listening to one pianist or another.

Baroque ornamentation is a complex, even controversial, topic. As a result, it is subject to a wide range of interpretation, as you have discovered.

The best place to start would be J.S. Bach's own table of ornaments that he wrote out for his eldest son. You can find it several places on the Internet, including here and here.

You might also post a question to the Pianist's Corner forum or the Adult Beginner's Forum.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by ventil; 10/11/13 12:23 AM.

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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2164726 10/11/13 04:47 AM
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I think what would be most useful in your learning process (besides a good teacher of course) is a good edition with help for the ornaments. I like the Alfred's edition, but haven't searched out all available. When I'm studying something new, I like to have an urtext edition and an edited edition and work with both.

Listening to other musicians perform the music - through recordings or live - is an important part of the process. But not, I think, the starting point. As you listen to recordings, you'll start to find which artists share your ideas. I'd suggest you listen to András Schiff if you haven't already. I don't know if he has a recording of the inventions but I respect his Bach.


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2164776 10/11/13 08:21 AM
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While I rely on music scores and my piano teacher to tell me how to handle baroque (and classical and romantic) ornamentation, being an uncreative type myself, I think it is highly unlikely that you will find any one version that can make a strong claim to being the only correct version. I think that things were just more fluid than that then, and they certainly are now!


Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
ventil #2164779 10/11/13 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ventil


You might also post a question to the Pianist's Corner forum or the Adult Beginner's Forum.

Hope this helps.


Thanks for the responses. I realized after i posted this that I was the wrong forum. Could a moderator possibly move it to the Adult Beginners area?


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
ventil #2164846 10/11/13 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ventil


...J.S. Bach's own table of ornaments that he wrote out for his eldest son. You can find it several places on the Internet, including here and here.


I've looked at this, and this is where it starts to drive me crazy. We see the Trillo as 6 notes. But, for instance, in the case of the first trill in Invention 1 (the first measure on the B) the versions I've listened to all seem to have only 4 notes, and 6 notes seems impossible except at slow tempo.

I don't have any issue, ultimately, with just playing ornaments the way I want, but for learning purposes I'd like to map out an exact way to play them, since while I have no difficulty playing trills with the right hand, I do have difficulty with the left, and also with coordinating trills with two-handed playing. The answer, of course, is to slow it down and practice the ornaments, bringing it up to speed as I progress, But I lack a clear idea of exactly what notes I should be practicing for each particular mordant or trill. This is why I thought some mainstream "by the book" recording might be a good idea for emulating until I get fluent and up to speed.


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2164849 10/11/13 10:43 AM
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Angela Hewitt recordings are a good place to start.


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Minnesota Marty #2164897 10/11/13 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Angela Hewitt recordings are a good place to start.


Yes. This. Also, she has a DVD one-woman 'master class'-type thing called 'Bach Performance on the Piano'. It gives some great insight into her approach to Bach. Possibly available at a library; about $35 for the 2-DVD set -- one is lecture at the keyboard with demonstrations, the other is a performance that's about an hour long.

Her elocution style is a bit stiff and self-conscious, but the content is really interesting, and her demonstrations are great. Some sections are watchable for free on YouTube. Enough to give you a sense of whether you want it in your life. I watched those and immediately ordered the DVD set. smile


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
thorn_was_taken #2164948 10/11/13 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Angela Hewitt recordings are a good place to start.


Originally Posted by thorn_was_taken
Yes. This. Also, she has a DVD one-woman 'master class'-type thing called 'Bach Performance on the Piano'...

Her elocution style is a bit stiff and self-conscious, but the content is really interesting, and her demonstrations are great.


Angela Hewitt. I believe she is my ticket, and that this answers my question.

Regarding her elocution style, I see what you mean. But that's cool, whatever floats her boat/sinks her submarine... Her communication is pristine, concise and clear. In addition to watching two excerpts from her DVD on YouTube, I listened to a few of her Invention performances, which strike me as technically masterful as well as cleanly articulated, and ordered the Performance DVD.

Thank you!


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2165008 10/11/13 06:08 PM
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The easiest solution by far is to buy one of probably several editions where every ornament is written out usually in small notes above the ornament and/or in a light shade of grey. Here's one well known example:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=bach%20inventions%20alfred

These edition are reasonably common because you're not the first person who has difficulty figuring every ornament. Just make sure you get one that's considered reasonably up to date and accurate. If you try and follow a recording this is far more time consuming and also quite difficult for the for complicated ornaments.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/11/13 06:18 PM.
Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2165018 10/11/13 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Psychonaut
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Angela Hewitt recordings are a good place to start.


Originally Posted by thorn_was_taken
Yes. This. Also, she has a DVD one-woman 'master class'-type thing called 'Bach Performance on the Piano'...

Her elocution style is a bit stiff and self-conscious, but the content is really interesting, and her demonstrations are great.


Angela Hewitt. I believe she is my ticket, and that this answers my question.

Regarding her elocution style, I see what you mean. But that's cool, whatever floats her boat/sinks her submarine... Her communication is pristine, concise and clear. In addition to watching two excerpts from her DVD on YouTube, I listened to a few of her Invention performances, which strike me as technically masterful as well as cleanly articulated, and ordered the Performance DVD.

Thank you!


Don't mention it! Glad it helped.


thorn

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1920's Mason & Hamlin A
Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
pianoloverus #2165047 10/11/13 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The easiest solution by far is to buy one of probably several editions where every ornament is written out usually in small notes above the ornament and/or in a light shade of grey. Here's one well known example:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=bach%20inventions%20alfred


Wow, this is the edition I should have gotten, so now I'm another $12 poorer. It will be here in a couple of days. Thanks!


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2165781 10/13/13 06:36 PM
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For Bach on the piano I've always liked Charles Rosen's playing.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Dave B #2168333 10/19/13 01:25 AM
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I also highly recommend the Alfred edition. It is by far the best I've seen for fully writing out suggested ornamentation.

I have recordings of the inventions and sinfonias by Angela Hewitt, Till Felner, Peter Serkin, and Glen Gould. I love them all! Each lets me hear the music in different ways.

The Peter Serkin recording is the one I chose as a potential model for my own playing, after listening to the samples of many different recordings on iTunes. This was partly because his tempos and articulations seemed more consistently within the realm of what I could imagine myself possibly achieving. It is also a pleasure to listen to.

It sounds like you already ordered the Alfred edition. Did you get the one that comes with a cd? (if not, it is available seperately for $11 from Alfred). The cd recording uses the phrasings, tempos, and articulations of the Alfred printed edition, and that may be as close as you could come to a "clean" version, if by "clean" you mean without ornamentations that are not found in one of the urtext editions. I had forgotten I had this cd, and am only now listening to it for the first time as I write this. Having listened to the 8 two-part inventions that I am most familiar with, I will say that it is an interesting resource that I will probably refer to again in the future, especially when trying to learn or re-learn one of the inventions myself, but for simple listening pleasure, it is not in the same league as my other recordings.

Good luck with your learning. What a great project to take on!

Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2168351 10/19/13 03:32 AM
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If you take the excellent recordings Corvus has mentioned and load them into Transcribe - http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html - you can play them back at reduced speeds while maintaining original pitch.

In other words, you can listen to Angela Hewitt at 60% of original tempo. Or whatever tempo you'd like, really. The slower things get in Transcribe the more distortion will be added to the recording. Most recordings at 70% of original speed sound fine. Many at 50% are ok. 50% is half as fast as the original. Slower than 50% and tone gets very harsh and it can be laborious to listen.

Playing along with slowed-down recordings while listening to them through headphones is a fabulous way to practice. Hands apart, two hands together, looping over and over again through a section of piece or just a phrase or two ... At slower speeds w/Bach Inventions you'll hear exactly who's doing what with which ornaments.

All details of phrasing, articulation, dynamics, rhythm, interpretation - it's all there to hear at slower speeds. When you play along with headphones your brain is getting the benefit of hearing the finished piece along with what you're playing. This'll help to develop a mental image of the piece. In other words, you'll be developing the ability to match inner and outer hearing. Strengthening what you hear internally is a good thing.

If you were to do this with the recordings Corvus mentioned - Angela Hewitt, Till Felner, Peter Serkin, and Glen Gould - it's like having a lesson with each of them. At slower speeds you can hear exactly what makes Glenn Gould's interpretation different than Peter Serkin's. Or TIll Fellner or whoever you load into Transcribe. For example, you'll hear exactly how Peter Serkin's articulation is different than that of Glenn Gould. If you imitate (while listening through headphones) Gould and Serkin it's like having a lesson with each of them. And then you'll have three ways of playing the invention - your way which will build up naturally as you practice and Serkin's way and Gould's way, for example.

There's usually resistance to trying new ways of doing things. I've found this to be so with playing along with Transcribe. I've also seen that my students mostly consider this to be a magical way to learn. One described it recently as a "no-brainer."

Transcribe has a 30-day trial so it's easy enough to get a copy and see how or if this works for you. (I don't work for Transcribe or know them so this isn't a pitch to increase their sales).

If you haven't tried playing along with a recording at a reduced speed, well, it's worthwhile to try. Do it for a few days and see if it works for you. ... the ornaments the OP asked about - that's just one of the things that'll become clear at a slower speed.


Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2168363 10/19/13 04:40 AM
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Thanks for the kind suggestions. The Angela Hewitt and Alfred Inventions & Sinfonias (with CD) have arrived in the mail, and I've been digging into the ornamentations and phrasings. At least now I can develop clear ideas of what I need to practice for particular passages, which is a much happier position to be in than not being able to do something but also unsure of what needs to be achieved.

Glenn Gould, especially, seems to break a lot of rules, which is fine. But IMHO, it's similar to writing prose or poetry: one first should understand what the standard rules are and be able to execute them before having an artistic license to break them.

Transcribe looks great (and very reasonably priced), but since I already have audio editing software that handles this (changing tempo while preserving pitch) I don't believe I need it. But I've got it bookmarked for future reference.


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Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Mark Polishook #2168415 10/19/13 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
If you take the excellent recordings Corvus has mentioned and load them into Transcribe - http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html - you can play them back at reduced speeds while maintaining original pitch.

In other words, you can listen to Angela Hewitt at 60% of original tempo. Or whatever tempo you'd like, really. The slower things get in Transcribe the more distortion will be added to the recording. Most recordings at 70% of original speed sound fine. Many at 50% are ok. 50% is half as fast as the original. Slower than 50% and tone gets very harsh and it can be laborious to listen.

Playing along with slowed-down recordings while listening to them through headphones is a fabulous way to practice. Hands apart, two hands together, looping over and over again through a section of piece or just a phrase or two ... At slower speeds w/Bach Inventions you'll hear exactly who's doing what with which ornaments.

All details of phrasing, articulation, dynamics, rhythm, interpretation - it's all there to hear at slower speeds. When you play along with headphones your brain is getting the benefit of hearing the finished piece along with what you're playing. This'll help to develop a mental image of the piece. In other words, you'll be developing the ability to match inner and outer hearing. Strengthening what you hear internally is a good thing.

If you were to do this with the recordings Corvus mentioned - Angela Hewitt, Till Felner, Peter Serkin, and Glen Gould - it's like having a lesson with each of them. At slower speeds you can hear exactly what makes Glenn Gould's interpretation different than Peter Serkin's. Or TIll Fellner or whoever you load into Transcribe. For example, you'll hear exactly how Peter Serkin's articulation is different than that of Glenn Gould. If you imitate (while listening through headphones) Gould and Serkin it's like having a lesson with each of them. And then you'll have three ways of playing the invention - your way which will build up naturally as you practice and Serkin's way and Gould's way, for example.

There's usually resistance to trying new ways of doing things. I've found this to be so with playing along with Transcribe. I've also seen that my students mostly consider this to be a magical way to learn. One described it recently as a "no-brainer."

Transcribe has a 30-day trial so it's easy enough to get a copy and see how or if this works for you. (I don't work for Transcribe or know them so this isn't a pitch to increase their sales).

If you haven't tried playing along with a recording at a reduced speed, well, it's worthwhile to try. Do it for a few days and see if it works for you. ... the ornaments the OP asked about - that's just one of the things that'll become clear at a slower speed.
I don't see the point in doing this when the Alfred books have everything written out. Also, I would find trying to listen to someone playing ornnaments or anyting else and playing along at the same time very confusing. If one didn't have a resource available where the ornaments are written out, then listening to some performance either at tempo or slowed down before trying to play the ornaments would make sense to me.

I don't think the OP or most students who are learning Bach Inventions are concerned about having three ways of playing them. He simply wants to know, with some reasonable degree of reliable correctness, how the ornaments go. As long as one agrees that the Alfred edition ornaments are reasonably correct by modern day scholarship, I don't see any other approach as simpler or better.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/19/13 08:17 AM.
Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2168457 10/19/13 10:09 AM
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Transcribe does sound interesting. It had not occurred to me to try playing along to a slowed-down recording, although I did recently watch a video of Valentina Lisitsa demonstrating how she learned a new concerto—by playing along with a favorite recording.

Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2168493 10/19/13 11:36 AM
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corvus,

it's definitely a technique to try. i've seen it work well not just for me but for my students too. when something works for students that's when it really gets my attention.

i could say more about why it works but the theory isn't all important. what is important is it's one more tool in the toolset for practicing. and why not have one more in the toolset? why not have a choice of methods from which to work?

of course we can we can forgo the slowed-down-recording route and work only with alfred as raised in another post. that's a point of view well-worth considering. but if we do choose to use only one source, well, end of day, alfred provides only the alfred view. not one of the artists whom you mentions play the inventions so they match up with alfred. indeed, there's quite a bit of variance amongst all of those pianists you mention . so, yes, for could go with alfred in the sense that it's a grail of simplicity - but interesting that a pretty good sampling of professionals choose not to.

..performance practice along with ornamentation is a living, breathing art. it changes and it accommodates change. why not get that out in the open right from the start? it doesn't mean everything has to be as complex as possible and then more complex. but it does show something about the real world of pianism - which is choices abound in performance practice. learning how to make responsible choices is an important part of the learning curve.

would be very interested to hear how you find slow-down-the-recording-and-play-along-it. of course it's a "your mileage may vary" technique. but so is everything else ...

btw, i listened to some of the VL stuff on youtube - thanks for that reference - i see there's quite a bit to hear there ...


Last edited by Mark Polishook; 10/19/13 11:38 AM.
Re: "Clean" Bach Inventions & Sinfonias Recorded Version?
Psychonaut #2168506 10/19/13 11:56 AM
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For interpretation, I suggest Paul Badura-Skoda's "Interpreting Bach At The Keyboard".

Those Alfred books can be nice.

I was lucky to meet Miss Hewitt at her concert at Macalester here-a long time ago. She is great. Her playing is fantastic and clean, yes, but I would not always describe her performances as traditional or 'textbook'.

If you want textbook, there is a lot of other stuff out there, some of which has been mentioned already in the thread. Have fun!

My 2 cents


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