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#2163145 - 10/07/13 07:35 PM A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change  
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An email received today from Steinway...

Dear Music Lover,

Hello, I'm Michael Sweeney, the president of Steinway & Sons. It is with great pleasure that I report to you that the sale of Steinway Musical Instruments to John Paulson and Paulson & Co. was completed on September 18th, 2013. I believe that we achieved a very good outcome for our former shareholders and I am delighted that John will now be the guardian of Steinway & Sons, Conn-Selmer and ArkivMusic.com.

It has been well reported that John has long had passion for Steinway pianos, but we thought you might enjoy getting to know him better. We have posted "A Conversation with John Paulson" so you can hear directly from John about some of his plans as the new owner of Steinway & Sons:



Hopefully, after viewing the video, you will be as reassured as I am that John is the right owner for Steinway & Sons, and that the future is bright for our company and our pianos. If you have any questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to contact us directly by replying to this email.

Michael Sweeney
CEO, Steinway Musical Instruments
President, Steinway & Sons


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#2163204 - 10/07/13 10:49 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Thanks for posting the John Paulson YT video, Frank.

However, Sally Phillips beat you to it a few days ago... smile

John Paulson YT Video posted by Sally Phillips

Of course, I'm not going to say that you need to read your own forum more often... (I might not be a moderator, or a PW member any longer smile ).

Rick


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#2163207 - 10/07/13 11:03 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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I was thinking the same, but this update is indicative of one thing: Steinway thinks enough of this third-party website's influence to include it in its public relations campaign.


I M A G I N A T I O N is more important than knowledge -Albert Einstein
#2163231 - 10/08/13 12:36 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Rickster]  
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Originally Posted by Rickster
Thanks for posting the John Paulson YT video, Frank.

However, Sally Phillips beat you to it a few days ago... smile

John Paulson YT Video posted by Sally Phillips

Of course, I'm not going to say that you need to read your own forum more often... (I might not be a moderator, or a PW member any longer smile ).

Rick

I guess they don't like me as much as Sally, I just got the email today.

Interesting considering they offered to buy PW twice :-)



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#2163242 - 10/08/13 01:17 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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No kidding???



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#2163243 - 10/08/13 01:23 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Originally Posted by Piano World

Interesting considering they offered to buy PW twice :-)



Interesting indeed!!!


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#2163260 - 10/08/13 02:51 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Frank

In reply, you might draw Mr Sweeney's attention to the recent threads about Steinway, and also Steinwas.

Amongst the posts of general interest there are some constructive suggestions about prep, hammers, model C, and matching the competition.


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2163262 - 10/08/13 03:24 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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An interesting comment in the video regarding the investment value of these pianos.
How about the following experience:

Purchase a Steinway directly from Steinway and Sons, for around £25000.
Keep this piano maintained by Steinway and Sons for over twenty years.
Have Steinway and Sons refurbish the instrument at a cost of £12000.
A few months later, decide to upgrade to a full concert grand. The offer from Steinway and Sons on the value of the old instrument was £15000, given the cost of the refurbishment work carried out this would seem to leave a residual value of the original piano of £3000. I certainly cannot see how that makes for a good "investment"!.
Refurbishment included refinishing of the piano. This had to be undertaken twice due to very poor quality of work resulting from the first attempt.


Steingraeber E-272 and Walcker pipe organ
#2163305 - 10/08/13 07:06 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Wonder what John's motive is, with his current financial venture with Steinway?

Is he betting on a new (york) identity?
Are most people continually fooled by seduction (control freaks) that pretend to give solace, such as John, silently sucking society out of their heritage and homes to his own benefit.

"At the center of the transactions described in the government's fraud case against Goldman, Sachs & Co. is New York hedge fund operator John Paulson, whose firm made $15 billion in 2007 by betting that Americans would default on their home loans in droves."
L.A.Times

He seems to fit the suave steinway stature,
Perhaps they'll do well together.


#2163310 - 10/08/13 07:38 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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What's behind all this, Dara?


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2163312 - 10/08/13 07:45 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Withindale]  
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Originally Posted by Withindale
What's behind all this, Dara?


Yes, I wonder also.
Insatiable incompetence ? wink

#2163344 - 10/08/13 09:06 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Funny in that the setting they chose was Steinway Hall, which is no longer owned by Steinway.


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#2163347 - 10/08/13 09:18 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Piano World needs a Pessimist's Forum.

Months ago I posted in a thread about the eternal "investment" argument in Piano Forum. As an example, I used our family 1921 S&S-M and tracked it from original purchase to current appraised value. The expenses across the years were well documented and inflation was factored in. I have not searched it out, but anyone is welcome to do so.

In very simple terms, in the worst case scenario, a new Steinway which cost ~$1K in 1920, would now have a "core" value of ~$6-7K. At the very minimum, even a "trashed" Steinway holds value, rather than having ended up in the dump 30 years ago. This cannot be said about the myriad of piano brands available in the same time period.

Let me say that I would never consider a piano to be a financial investment. However, I invest in many things from which I expect no financial gain.

Buying a home has always been considered to be a "sound investment," however, recent history has even shattered that concept. But, a fine piano is a very different type of commodity, and investment, than is real estate.



Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2163348 - 10/08/13 09:22 AM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Steve Cohen]  
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Minnesota Marty Offline

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Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Funny in that the setting they chose was Steinway Hall, which is no longer owned by Steinway.

They could also have built a stage set and filmed in a studio. It matters not. At the time of the sale, Steinway Hall was still in use by S&S.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2163535 - 10/08/13 04:39 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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$1000 in 1921 would be far more than $7000 in 2013. The Dow in 1921 was something like 381. . . .

Just saying.

This is nothing against buying Steinways. It is against the idea that any piano is going to appreciate in real dollars over time.

#2163549 - 10/08/13 05:15 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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OK, a core worth $50 in 1921 would now, with inflation rate, cost $634.53. Hmmm


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2163561 - 10/08/13 05:31 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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Withindale Offline
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For comparison my Schiedmayer cost £80 in 1926 and nobody wanted it in 2010; the Ibach was priced at 2450 marks in 1909 (2250 marks in 1901) and, as a core (i.e. less the value of new hammers, etc), was also worth nothing in 2012.

Does anyone know the value of a 1909 mark in $ or £?

Last edited by Withindale; 10/08/13 06:54 PM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2163567 - 10/08/13 05:44 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Piano World needs a Pessimist's Forum.

Months ago I posted in a thread about the eternal "investment" argument in Piano Forum. As an example, I used our family 1921 S&S-M and tracked it from original purchase to current appraised value. The expenses across the years were well documented and inflation was factored in. I have not searched it out, but anyone is welcome to do so.

In very simple terms, in the worst case scenario, a new Steinway which cost ~$1K in 1920, would now have a "core" value of ~$6-7K. At the very minimum, even a "trashed" Steinway holds value, rather than having ended up in the dump 30 years ago. This cannot be said about the myriad of piano brands available in the same time period.

Let me say that I would never consider a piano to be a financial investment. However, I invest in many things from which I expect no financial gain.

Buying a home has always been considered to be a "sound investment," however, recent history has even shattered that concept. But, a fine piano is a very different type of commodity, and investment, than is real estate.
The PB depreciation schedule shows only a small difference in the depreciation for Steinways vs. other makers.

A PW member who wrote a book about buying pianos(The Complete Idiot's Guide to Buying a Piano?) has discussed piano depreciation here and said, to the best of my recollection, there is no difference between the depreciation of Steinways and Yamahas(perhaps other makes also). There is probably an exception to this for extremely old Steinways but what happens to the value of a piano beyond 50-60 years is probably not very important to most people.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/08/13 05:53 PM.
#2163578 - 10/08/13 06:13 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Withindale]  
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Originally Posted by Withindale
Does anyone know the value of a 1909 mark in $ or £?


The Goldmark was established after the german unification after the 1870/71 war with France, and lasted until the big inflation came in the early 1920ies.

The "Mark" or former "Goldmark" can be in general recalculated along the Gold value.

Citation Wikipedia:

"Gold coins

Gold coins were minted in .900 fineness to a standard of 2790 Mark = 1 kilogram of gold. Gold coin production ceased in 1915. 5 Mark gold coins were minted only in 1877 and 1878. - 5 Mark, 1.9912 g (1.7921 g gold) - 10 Mark, 3.9825 g (3.5842 g gold)"

So one Goldmark represented the weight of 0.36 gr pure gold which is actually worth 1320 USD per ounce i.e. 28.3 gr. So one Goldmark actually is around 16.5 USD.


Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain
#2163588 - 10/08/13 06:29 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Minnesota Marty]  
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted by Steve Cohen
Funny in that the setting they chose was Steinway Hall, which is no longer owned by Steinway.

They could also have built a stage set and filmed in a studio. It matters not. At the time of the sale, Steinway Hall was still in use by S&S.


They will use the yet sold Steinway Hall on a rental basis until ca. 2014.

Maybe that Mr Paulson regrets that Steinway Hall yet was sold - again. Maybe he tries to get back ownership on Steinway Hall also. ... We'll see.

There is another "Steinway" item - the villa on the north Queens shore between LaGuardia and the plant which was for sale also some months or maybe 1-2 yrs ago, the "Pike Mansion". Summer home of the Steinway Presidents, first used by William Steinway in 1871 until 1896. Advantage: hill view over the Steinway factory. Disadvantages: noise from LaGuardia airport, view to Rikers island, the biggest New York City prison. ...



Pls excuse any bad english.

D 1877 satin black plain
#2163602 - 10/08/13 06:58 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: BerndAB]  
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Originally Posted by BerndAB
Originally Posted by Withindale
Does anyone know the value of a 1909 mark in $ or £?
... So one Goldmark represented the weight of 0.36 gr pure gold which is actually worth 1320 USD per ounce i.e. 28.3 gr. So one Goldmark actually is around 16.5 USD.

Thank you, Bernd. That puts the Ibach at almost $40,000 about 1/3 to 1/2 of a comparable piano today.

Last edited by Withindale; 10/08/13 07:06 PM.

Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
#2163606 - 10/08/13 07:03 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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The mansion is not involved in the recent sale of SMI. It was purchased by William Steinway in 1870 and sold to Jack Halberian in 1926. Mr. Halberian had no affiliation with S&S. It is currently for sale by the Estate of Michael Halbeian, son of Jack.

There is no connection, other than it is commonly referred to as "the Steinway Mansion."

The Steinway Transit Line is also not part of the sale.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
#2163620 - 10/08/13 07:35 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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This is not to start an argument with the pros here. It is a difference of opinions from a consumer point of view.

To really analyze whether something is of "investment" value, there are many factors to consider.

Speaking only for myself, I won't buy a standard (w/o historical value) piano for "investment value" because its "appreciation" rate is unpredictable, unknown and cannot be analyzed. Using stock market as an example, one can research a corporation's product strategy, roadmap, executive team, and products. One can look at dividends, if any, quarterly revenue, profits and do meaningful modeling to understand the various potential scenarios moving forward. One can even do technical analysis of the market and get a handle on trends and act accordingly if necessary. None of that is possible with a piano purchase.

A $10 dollar investment in Apple stock in September 2003, nets $399 today and after-tax return of $409. It can be managed on a quarterly basis, and the value in the stock can be turned into cash by a simple trade on-line. When we add dividends and splits, the intrinsic values are tangible; both in gains and in loss. Most importantly, one can decide when to sell and when to hold smile.

A piano is not a manageable "investment" vehicle because its liquidity is difficult (time consuming) to realize and not conducive to active and prudent management. The maintenance cost (incl. energy cost) too is hard to generalize due to life and regional variations.

Piano makers can certainly make the "investment value" claim as part of their marketing and sales strategies; just like high-tech companies all like to call their products "amazing" smile.

For my family, the real "investment" is in hearing beautiful live music inside our home and watching our kids enjoy themselves while acquiring precious music-making skills. That "gain" is not measurable in terms of "monetary" value.

Peace and Cheers!


#2163665 - 10/08/13 09:40 PM Re: A Message Regarding the Steinway & Sons Ownership Change [Re: Piano World]  
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The real return on investment of a high-quality piano is the satisfaction its performance produces.

The $$$$ pales in comparison.


Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
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Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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