Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Fall 2017
Who's Online Now
66 registered members (Andy001, ando, Alex C, ARpiano, amad23, Beakybird, 17 invisible), 1,206 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#2170284 - 10/22/13 07:57 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,762
bennevis Online content
9000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,762
Originally Posted by argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies and Symphonic Dances are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?

Need I say more?

Or am I just 'confused', because Brendel (and you) says so? wink


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2170289 - 10/22/13 08:07 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]  
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 574
Valencia Offline
500 Post Club Member
Valencia  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 574
Happy Birthday to Liszt! smile Hopefully one day I'll be able to play one of his pieces.

For now, here is Valentina playing Totentanz, which seems a perfect piece for honouring his 202 birthday:


#2170290 - 10/22/13 08:08 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]  
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,629
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Damon  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,629
Originally Posted by bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted by bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.

#2170293 - 10/22/13 08:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Damon]  
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,762
bennevis Online content
9000 Post Club Member
bennevis  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 9,762
Originally Posted by Damon
Originally Posted by bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted by bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.

No, I'll say more.

Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.

I think that just about covers everything....

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2170310 - 10/22/13 08:51 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
New York City
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

I wouldn't go so far as "immeasurably greater," but it's true that Liszt never wrote an orchestral work as great as Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony, and his concertos cannot compare with Rach's 2nd and 3rd.

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2170321 - 10/22/13 09:11 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,373
argerichfan Offline
9000 Post Club Member
argerichfan  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,373
Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.

But I thought it was the other was around.

The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

You're not going to win this, Poly. wink


Jason
#2170322 - 10/22/13 09:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
New York City
Originally Posted by argerichfan
The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

It is definitely inventive and spontaneous. The Liszt is mostly an empty technical display.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2170366 - 10/22/13 11:20 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
Originally Posted by Polyphonist

However, what I will say is that Chopin surpassed them both.



shocked

Originally Posted by bennevis
Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)?


shocked

Originally Posted by bennevis
And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?


shocked shocked shocked WHAT. I'd take Christus based on the Stabat Mater Dolorosa alone.

Originally Posted by bennevis
And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?


His 2nd and 3rd PC's, yes (3rd is one of my favourite pieces of music, and I love the 2nd although I prefer Liszt's 2nd). For me, Totentanz > Paganini. I like Rachmaninoff's 1st and 4th about as much as I like Liszt's lesser pieces for p&o: De Profundis, Malediction, PC 3, and less than PC #1.

Originally Posted by bennevis
Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.


True.

Originally Posted by bennevis
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.


shocked

For me:

Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Liszt was a far greater innovator. Liszt wins grin

Of course, this is all meaningless and subjective.

I don't mean to denigrate Rachmaninoff: indeed, he is one of my favourite composers. The 3rd PC and the Isle of the Dead are two of my favourite works in their respective genres.



Last edited by pianojosh23; 10/22/13 11:28 PM.
#2170371 - 10/22/13 11:30 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
New York City
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2170378 - 10/22/13 11:38 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Pogorelich.  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
not somewhere over the rainbow
Originally Posted by bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#2170381 - 10/22/13 11:41 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.


You think I'm basing it on just one piece? I do think there is nothing Rachmaninoff wrote for the piano that is as good as the Sonata, but I also put Liszt's Annees, Harmonies Poetiques, and Etudes ahead of Rach's Preludes and Etudes. I would take Liszt's Weinen Klagen variations over the Corelli's AND the Chopin. Also, there is Liszt's incredible work as an arranger and the fact that he just wrote more good music for the instrument...his achievement is far broader and his music has more versatility.

As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante. I see the Isle of the Dead as being as good as the best of Liszt's tone poems -if not better- but Liszt just wrote far more good music. You wouldn't put The Rock ahead of Tasso, Orpheus, Les Preludes, Huns, Heroide Funebre, midnight procession, etc would you?

As for piano and orchestra, I do think Rachmaninoff's achievements are more significant and deserve the nod by the margin I suggested, but Liszt's works are great for what they strive to be. They are very inventive, beautiful, and well constructed within their framework.

Again, though: all I am writing can only really be put down to what I like better. Heaps of people see it the opposite to me, and I am no more right than them.

#2170382 - 10/22/13 11:41 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Pogorelich.  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
not somewhere over the rainbow
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just STOP!



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#2170387 - 10/22/13 11:46 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There's that, too. Really all I have said is that I prefer Liszt and his style better, and I am biased. grin

#2170391 - 10/22/13 11:55 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]  
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member
pianojosh23  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 643
Anyway back to the point of the thread: Happy birthday Liszt, the composer who has given me more than any other.

#2170392 - 10/22/13 11:55 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Pogorelich.  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
not somewhere over the rainbow
Haha, I didn't just mean you.. I meant the whole lot of them!!!

I love both, but of course Rachmaninov is my one and only. But, I have played tons of Liszt, so you cannot judge me (and yes, including the sonata).



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#2170395 - 10/23/13 12:06 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
New York City
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2170396 - 10/23/13 12:09 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: pianojosh23]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
New York City
Originally Posted by pianojosh23
As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante.

Huh? I was separating concertos and orchestral works - so the Rach Opus 27 goes up against the Faust, and wins by a large margin. Opus 30 goes up against either Liszt concerto, and there is no contest there either.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2170401 - 10/23/13 12:34 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Pogorelich.  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,710
not somewhere over the rainbow
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
#2170402 - 10/23/13 12:37 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
Polyphonist Online content
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Online Content
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,269
New York City
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.

At least we have that straight. grin


Regards,

Polyphonist
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Pearl River Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Problem with Kawai MP11SE
by Velluth. 12/11/17 02:10 AM
Undesired side effect of great VSTs
by Osho. 12/11/17 12:43 AM
New Mapes IGS wire coils look old!
by synthnut. 12/10/17 11:20 PM
Opinion on wrist/slur motion in a video
by wirecat. 12/10/17 09:45 PM
MP11 or MP11 SE setup
by dpilot83. 12/10/17 09:42 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics183,201
Posts2,678,195
Members89,262
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0