Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum Feedback from piano restorers on Steinway restoration

A Steinway dealer near me recently posted this virtual document on its website at

http://www.jacobsmusic.com/steinwaypianoevent

Particularly in light of some of the recent (and lengthening) threads on this site, I would be curious to know what the cognoscenti among us (of whom I am not one, of course) think of it.

I'm not a dealer or technician, just an amateur player. But I'm a technologist.

For this post, I'm assuming that the dealer's claims about soundboards are true.

In technology, this document would be classed as FUD. FUD means "fear, uncertainty, and doubt" [and I think the term was first used in conjunction with some of Microsoft's marketing strategies]. The point of it is to give customers qualms about buying a competitor's product.

Any restored Steinway is almost certainly going to inherit the prestige and price attached to the formidable brand, though the aforesaid document may cause some people to ask questions they otherwise wouldn't.

As to the quality of any restored piano--I imagine there are lots of variables, the name attached to the front of the piano not foremost among them. And having played a handful of non-rebuilt Steinways, I can say that I've played some I consider awesome and others I've considered 'meh'.

Well, considering we've already had discussions about Steinway vs. "Steinwas" many times, I'm personally not sure further discussion of this subject will reveal anything more than more more name-calling, invective, and fighting. Still...

Steinway can market their pianos and rebuilding services however they want. The argument about investment value is stupid, because buying a piano is not an investment. You may be able to get more than you paid for it over time, but the increase will be less than inflation, so it's not an investment. If you want a "Genuine Heirloom Piano"--whatever that is--then by all means, buy a "Genuine Steinway"--whatever that is. It's a personal choice. My feeling is that if you're more interested in value as a musical instrument, and not based on these other factors, then you get the piano that best fits your needs, regardless of who made it and who might have rebuilt it. Everything else is FUD from Steinway.

Steinway makes really nice though sometimes inconsistent pianos. Their QC is getting better though, just like it is with other manufacturers. Personally I'm very turned off by their hard marketing tactics, and the even harder (and often downright misleading) tactics used by Steinway dealers. I find it off-putting enough that if I were in the market for a new piano, I would probably consider other excellent makers over them. Again, this is a very personal decision, and I wouldn't think badly about people who would decide differently than I would.

First of all, what's a "patented trademark?" Patents and trademarks are two different things.

(There used to be laws and strict fines for falsely claiming a "patent." But in 2011, Barack Obama signed into law the Leahy-Smith America Invents Act, so now companies can make up claims of "patents" with no danger of repercussion.)

And, obviously, all the patents from a piano 30+ years old have expired, so there's nothing proprietary that can't legally be duplicated by a competitor.

Whether another company can make a restoration "authentic" is a matter of opinion. I have no doubt that Steinway does a good job on their restoration, but it's not true that others can't.

And I wouldn't bet my retirement money on this dealer's claims that it will "increase in value."

Gee.....do you think that the Vintage Steinway Restoration Center of Philadelphia (aka Cunningham Piano)is their direct competition has anything to do with this line of "marketing"?

Yes, it's true that Steinway does not provide its soundboards to rebuilders/restorers other than its restoration department (unlike action parts and pin blocks). However, the rest of this "virtual document" is entirely marketing opinion, and doesn't really withstand well against logic. Pianos are not financial investments, for one, and the notion that only Steinway is able to craft a high-quality soundboard is both untrue, arrogant, and offensive. There are a handful of rebuilders in the US (Erwin, Andersen, Hughes, etc.) that re manufacture Steinways at least as well, if not better than, original factory quality in terms of both performance and aesthetics, but these specimens typically cost 70%-85% of a new equivalent instrument. That said, these are a minority of the "restored" pianos out there... most of which are not as good as a new instrument.

Does Steinway use a "branding iron" on its soundboards?
how does the customer know its a genuine Steinway board?

The method that Steinway uses to install soundboards depends on the heat and humidity conditions of the room where the soundboard is installed. In that sense, this is correct.

I have long felt that a piano which has been rebuilt is more about the rebuilder than the original manufacturer. Suppose a, very high quality, rebuilding shop (let's call them "Bob's Rebuilders")"restores" an old Steinway. Let's assume they install a new Wessell, Nickel and Gross action, Kluge keyboard, Renner hammers, etc. The shop makes their own soundboard, bridges and pinblock. At some point the piano is no longer a Steinway. The original case has in fact been transformed into a "Bob's Rebuilders" piano. Bob's may do beautiful work and the piano may be as good as, or even better than, the original Steinway. But, Steinway is perfectly correct in advertising that such a piano is "no longer a genuine Steinway". Whether or not this claim resonates with the potential piano buyer is what marketing is all about. Most people buy a piano as a musical instrument rather than as an "investment". If potential appreciation is a major concern, look for a better investment option. IMHO

Frankly these S&s non-S&S discussions are all about belief systems.

If you are disposed to believe S&S was handed down the transcendental knowledge of how to build a "revelatory" piano, you will find confirmation in this marketing. If you are disposed to believe art comes from many and varied vectors, you will not be disposed to believe the marketing.

Either way, it really makes no difference at all what any of us choose to believe in this regard. As far as I can tell, the Cosmos will continue on its merry way whether we agree or disagree with whoever is managing the spin du jour.

Jim Ialeggio

So, a Steinway that has Renner hammers and/or a kluge keyboard, and/or a pinblock and/or soundboard that differ from the original is not a Steinway?

What kind of car is this?
Does it have factory parts?
Does it perform as good as the day it first came off the assembly line?
Do you think the manufacture cares?
Do you think the owner cares?
What's it worth?

This topic has been thrashed out quite a lot.

Steinway and Sons will not sell their soundboards to anybody. However, there is a compromise to be had here: In London, anyway, you can ask them to send your Steinway to Hamburg to have the soundboard and bridges replaced, separate from anything else. That would mean the piano still has a Steinway board regardless of whatever action is used etc... It's very expensive. In 2009 a Steinway technician told me that for the Soundboard, Strings and Plank replacement alone it was £10,000 plus VAT. Steinways will sell an action to a technician, and the current price is £4000 plus VAT for the parts, never mind fitting. Through the London showroom that's a Renner action for Hamburg Steinways. The Keyboard, which is Kluge, costs another £4000 plus VAT through Steinway Hall. So, that is already £18,000 plus VAT, plus the cost of fitting the action and keyboard, to the customer.

So, unless you go through Steinways at some point in the chain, the piano won't be 'officially' a 'Steinway' - for marketing purposes, Steinway will not recognize the piano as a Steinway.

The truth is that there ARE restorers who can make and fit a soundboard for a Steinway that will function as well as the Steinway board, possibly even better. Going to a restorer that isn't Steinway also means you can tell them what you like and don't like about the piano, and they can help optimize it.

There are action parts that may suit your needs better - also, it's possible to buy the same action parts from Renner, not going through Steinway Hall, and the parts will function identically to Steinway parts, but you won't pay the mark up for the name. There are hammer heads that work as well as the hammers that Steinway use, and some that are superior. You can have your action customized so that you have a lighter hammer for instance, allowing greater control and flexibility than the factory hammers. You can have all sorts of things done when working with an independent rebuilder, that you can't have done when going through Steinways directly.

You may damage the 'market' value of your piano by doing this. It may no longer be a 'Steinway' and now be a 'Steinwas'. However, the musical value of the instrument may well be improved, and you will have more money in your pocket at the end of the day.

If you want a brand new Steinway piano in your old case, and you want it to function exactly the same way as a new Steinway, and sound the same as a new Steinway, and you don't mind paying that bit extra, go to Steinways for your restoration. Their work is expensive, but it's very very good. They do exactly what they set out to do, which is to give back a modern Steinway in the historical case.

Remember, some top pianists quite often have modifications made to their Steinways, and sometimes Steinways even allow for this. Think Horowitz, who's name is thrashed out more than most as a pianist who didn't like the normal Steinway but wanted something more. Glenn Gould, too. Pollini.... etc etc.

My primary concern when it comes to a piano isn't the market value. My primary concern is the sound and touch. My secondary concern is longevity and quality, but I trust my rebuilder when it comes to that.

My point is simply that such a piano has much more to do with the rebuilder than the original manufacturer since the only original components are the cabinet and the plate. Perhaps we should call it a "20% Steinway". All I am saying is that when Steinway makes the claim that such a piano is no longer a "genuine Steinway" - they are correct. It might even be better than the original, but it is still a product of the rebuilder more so than the manufacturer.

Well, I understood your point and I was having some fun with you. Since all Steinways new or rebuilt at Steinway have kluge keys, your listed components made all Steinways from anywhere non genuine. And all vintage Steinways that are rebuilt at the Steinway factory have different soundboard designs and materials from original, so again, these factory rebuilt Steinways are not genuine, according to your post. And all Hamburg Steinways have Renner hammers and renner action parts, so these are also not Steinways

I actually consider them hybrids, and certainly they are not historically authentic, but I would not consider a Steinway rebuilt at the Steinway factory with this hybrid approach to not be a Steinway.

But here we go again ( not you Gerry ) and I am at fault here. This entire discussion distracts from what matters. How does the piano sound. How does it perform. How does it feel. How does it look. How is it supported ( warranty, service etc )

Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

This is a separate post to address another point here. It really depends on your approach to rebuilding to call it more about the rebuilder than the manufacturer.
Unless the rebuilder is radically redesigning the piano, using extremely different sound producing materials ( carbon fibet soundboard ) or having substandard workmanship ( quite common unfortunately ) it is more about the manufacturer than the rebuilder.

It is the genius of Steinway's design which goes back to the 19th century that allows a rebuilder to rebuild a Steinway into a great Steinway. If the rebuilder is faithful to the original design and materials, maybe making a few reasonable tweaks here and there to make up for some weak notes or a bad break etc, it is actually all about Steinway, their design, and the rebuilders ability to use excellent materials and workmanship to allow the Steinway to really shine, as a Steinway. If the rebuilder, or factory for that matter, creates something that doesn't sound and perform like a Steinway, than I agree, it is not authentic, regardless of its performance. Maybe a great piano, but now something different.
But if the rebuilder does his job right, it is all about Steinway and very little about the rebuilder.
Steinway is like Chopin. Is only Chopin performed Chopin legit? Is Chopin performed by Chopin's students the only legitimate Chopin? Is Chopin performed by Chopin's student's students legit? I think Cortot's Chopin is the most authentic, but I also love Horowitz. I think you hear more Horowitz in Horowitz's Chopin than you hear Perrahia in Perrahia's Chopin, but there is never any denying in either case that Chopin's music is the overwhelmingly important factor.

Does Steinway, either NY or Hamburg, manufacture their own keyboard logos or are they subcontracted?

Since the argument is about what constitutes the product behind the logo, I wonder if the logo is even genuine, in the nit picking sort of way.

Realistically as long as everything is Steinway design It's still a Steinway. A duplicated soundboard is still Steinway design. Replacing old action partscwith newer Steinway parts it's still a Steinway. It only truly becomes something different when you deviate from Steinway design.

-My two cents
Kyle G.

Kyle, wise words.

Marty, Steinway owns Kluge who make the keyboards. The Renner action in Hamburg pianos is a Steinway-designed action, and the New York pianos have an in-house made action. The plates are made by a plant that Steinway owns as far as I'm aware, and it's the same plates for new york and hamburg models.

In January I will take delivery of a Bluthner, rebuilt by an independent workshop who also rebuild for Bluthner. The piano will have a new action, soundboard, keyboard, plank, re-guilded frame, case finished in ebony satin, etc. The only original parts will be the case and the frame, and the bridges will be retained but re-capped. All of the work will take place in the workshop, including the manufacture of the soundboard. I would consider this piano to be a Bluthner even though it isn't an original Bluthner. I know the work of the rebuilder and have played several of his pianos. I don't care if I should really call it a Leverett-Bluthner now or a Bluthner, the fact is it will sound and feel amazing.

Greetings,
It is a mistake to assume that the quality of work done as restoration is the same quality of work that made the name famous a century ago. A 100 year old Steinway is not going to be restored to its original specifications,but to more modern ones. I have personal experience with a LOT of Steinway Restoration Department belly work. At one time, I had sent more pianos through for new boards than any other tech in the country,(this was during the first 10 years or so after the Restoration Dept. opened).

At present, I and a customer are still waiting for an explanation of why a rosewood 1875 concert grand has pulled the pinblock out of place and become untunable (14 years after the work was done). Our university concert grand received a new soundboard at the factory, two months later, it was flat, had loose tuning pins in the bass, more false strings than a cheap spinet, and some of the poorest bridge notching imaginable.

Uninformed customers will continue to pay exorbitant costs to have the factory imprint, (they have been convinced that they own a unique piece of art that will lose all value if anyone else lays hands on it but the Factory). However, when you get down to it, if you want the traditional, stellar, Steinway response, there are other places to get it than the factory. Today, customers have a choice between tradition or performance.
Regards,