Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
100 registered members (Alexander Tuynman, anamnesis, alphonsus, Alexank, 7uturu, accordeur, 26 invisible), 1,651 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#2159567 - 09/29/13 10:05 AM Moonlight Sonata - pedaling  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
TheodorN Online content
1000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
Sweden
Hi there fellow ABFers. I'm working on the famous 1st movement of Beethoven´s Moonlight Sonata. On the sheet music it says con ped. which means with pedal.

But I'm not sure if I'm supposed to hold the pedal down through all the piece or at the beginning of each new chord, and then of course lift it between chords.

Which is it, anyone who's tried the 1st movement (must be?) I'm working from Gilbert de Benedetti´s arrangement, this one here:

http://gmajormusictheory.org/Freebies/Level4/4Moonlig.pdf

As MIDI:

http://gmajormusictheory.org/Freebies/Level4/4Moonlig.mid


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Native Instruments Giant. Galaxy II 1929 Blüthner Baby Grand. Sampletekk Black. Production Voices: Estate Grand, Studio Grand Piano LE. Waves Grand Rhapsody Piano.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2159571 - 09/29/13 10:19 AM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Boynton Beach, FL
Just do it based on how it sounds on your piano. The pedals of Beethoven's time were much less resonant/lasting.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2159582 - 09/29/13 10:52 AM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 147
PhilzPiano Offline
Full Member
PhilzPiano  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 147
UK
I'm not a teacher but I have learned this piece to the best of my current ability! My advice would be to take the plunge and learn the proper piece rather than an arrangement, as it's not as hard as you might think. As far as the pedal goes, I would quickly lift and re-apply it as you lift your left hand off the keyboard, so that the previous bass notes are cleared and the pedal is down again just before you play the next bass notes. Typically this means at the transition from one bar to the next, or in the case of your arranged piece, once every two bars. Use this as a starting point and then modify your pedalling to suit your piano.


Kawai CA67
#2159592 - 09/29/13 11:09 AM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,333
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,333
Stockholms län, Sverige
"Con Ped." just means to use the pedal. How it used is up the the performer (as Morodiene indicated).

What concerns me about this edition is the r.h. fingering, or at least that a more open fingering isn't written in as an alternative to the closed fingering (e.g., bar one 1 2 4 1 2 4, bar five 1 2 4 1 2 3, bar six 1 2 4 1 2 5, bar seven 1 2 5 . . . et c.).


M.

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2159620 - 09/29/13 12:10 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: Michael Sayers]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
"Con Ped." just means to use the pedal. How it used is up the the performer (as Morodiene indicated).

What concerns me about this edition is the r.h. fingering, or at least that a more open fingering isn't written in as an alternative to the closed fingering (e.g., bar one 1 2 4 1 2 4, bar five 1 2 4 1 2 3, bar six 1 2 4 1 2 5, bar seven 1 2 5 . . . et c.).


M.
I think the fingering suggestions are fine and typical. Of course, all fingering is up to the pianist to discover what is most efficient and helpful for them, but the ones offered in here are standard, whereas yours are more personalized.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2159634 - 09/29/13 12:39 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
TheodorN Online content
1000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
Sweden
Thank you for your answers. PhilzPiano, the original is in C# minor and looks a little intimidating. shocked This version is in A minor, which means there aren't supposed to be any black notes. However it does contain accidentals, especially the middle part.

Last edited by TheodorN; 09/29/13 12:40 PM.

My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Native Instruments Giant. Galaxy II 1929 Blüthner Baby Grand. Sampletekk Black. Production Voices: Estate Grand, Studio Grand Piano LE. Waves Grand Rhapsody Piano.
#2159640 - 09/29/13 12:52 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,333
Michael Sayers Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Michael Sayers  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,333
Stockholms län, Sverige
You can hack away at the original a little at a time. It may be intimidating but if you do it you will be glad about it afterwards smile


M.

#2159785 - 09/29/13 07:03 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
Listen to this lecture:
http://download.guardian.co.uk/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/11/22/03_14CSharpMin.mp3

This should be a compulsory lecture for anyone before learning this sonata.


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
#2159793 - 09/29/13 07:24 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
Originally Posted by TheodorN
This version is in A minor, which means there aren't supposed to be any black notes. However it does contain accidentals, especially the middle part.


The sound of C# minor and A minor is so different that it discounts the piece significantly if done in A minor. A minor is not so happy not so sad, but C# minor is sad and a sadness with longing and questioning. It is sad since E-major is not as sunny as C major.



Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
#2159831 - 09/29/13 08:58 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: 4evrBeginR]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by 4evrBeginR
Originally Posted by TheodorN
This version is in A minor, which means there aren't supposed to be any black notes. However it does contain accidentals, especially the middle part.


The sound of C# minor and A minor is so different that it discounts the piece significantly if done in A minor. A minor is not so happy not so sad, but C# minor is sad and a sadness with longing and questioning. It is sad since E-major is not as sunny as C major.

I'm sure if he were able to play in C# minor, he would. I don't begrudge anyone who wishes to play the A section of Fur Elise, Canon in D (which is not originally written for piano), or any other simplifications/transcriptions.

And heck, if he's playing on a digital he could use the transpose function to raise it up 4 half steps. wink


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2159835 - 09/29/13 09:10 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: Morodiene]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
Well, yeah, you know, between you and me, while nobody else is listening, I'm kind of against the idea that anyone with less than many years at the piano even attempt this sonata especially the first two movements. Ironically, I think the 3rd movement is harder to ruin. I of course hold the minority view as demonstrated by YouTube.

Originally Posted by Morodiene
And heck, if he's playing on a digital he could use the transpose function to raise it up 4 half steps. wink


Wow, don't even let my teacher hear that kind of talk. Transposing by pushing buttons. What is this world coming to! Hehe.


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
#2159844 - 09/29/13 09:22 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Morodiene  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 15,714
Boynton Beach, FL
IMO, it's all about enjoyment. Even if the OP were my student and he wanted to become a professional pianist and really really wanted to play the Moonlight, but he was just a beginner and many years from being able to do it justice, I'd still give him a simplification. Enjoyment is so important to the process of learning.


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
#2159857 - 09/29/13 09:55 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: Morodiene]  
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
4evrBeginR Offline
1000 Post Club Member
4evrBeginR  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,607
California
I agree; it's much easier to learn something we like.


Art is never finished, only abandoned. - da Vinci
#2160006 - 09/30/13 09:47 AM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
TheodorN Online content
1000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
Sweden
Thank you for good inputs. I've often given it a thought if one should even practise simplified versions and actually started a thread about that subject a few years (wow!) back. It seems a bit like a double effort to learn the simplified version and then the original.

Still, if we take this Moonlight Sonata in A minor, what I see in it, is that it seems a good practice in arpeggios of a few sorts, minor, major, sevenths, even some dim and sus chords. Would be an interesting task to identify all the chords. cool

Might even ditch the piece for the time being. What I most want to learn is to play contemporary music, pop/rock/blues, even jazz and country. I like some classical music, at least the popular ones in addition to MS, Blue Danube, Beethoven's, Fur Elise, Mozart's Turkish March and Pachebel's Canon to name a few. Thought that is rather a way to reach the other goal (being able to play the rock hits.)


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Native Instruments Giant. Galaxy II 1929 Blüthner Baby Grand. Sampletekk Black. Production Voices: Estate Grand, Studio Grand Piano LE. Waves Grand Rhapsody Piano.
#2166818 - 10/15/13 07:34 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member
EdwardianPiano  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
Rainy England
Originally Posted by TheodorN
Hi there fellow ABFers. I'm working on the famous 1st movement of Beethoven´s Moonlight Sonata. On the sheet music it says con ped. which means with pedal.

But I'm not sure if I'm supposed to hold the pedal down through all the piece or at the beginning of each new chord, and then of course lift it between chords.

Which is it, anyone who's tried the 1st movement (must be?) I'm working from Gilbert de Benedetti´s arrangement, this one here:

http://gmajormusictheory.org/Freebies/Level4/4Moonlig.pdf

As MIDI:

http://gmajormusictheory.org/Freebies/Level4/4Moonlig.mid


I have just finished the Coursera Beethoven piano sonatas course with Jonathan Biss. He talked about this in the video lecture. Beethoven did indeed mean for the pedal to be held down throughout the movement. However, he wrote and played this on a fortepiano which creates a different effect than the modern piano- it was meant to have a hazy, almost mysterious sound but it can become fuzzy on a modern piano.
If you want to hear the difference on a fortepiano here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tattSl7O-s4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDUmWaus3Q

I personally think this sounds so much better than on a modern piano- wait til you hear the third movement! The enotional effect on this piano is almost devastating-I almost wept on first listen! Every note leaps out and grasps your heart!!

If you are interested I have a transcript of the lecture on this sonata and how Beethoven intended it to sound.I can put it on my Box and link it, or you can PM me and I could email it you.

Last edited by EdwardianPiano; 10/15/13 07:38 PM.

https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.
#2167226 - 10/16/13 02:08 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
TheodorN Online content
1000 Post Club Member
TheodorN  Online Content
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,964
Sweden
Thank you for the links, EdwardianPiano. Those versions were both good, don't know if I've misunderstood something but weren't they both played on a fortepiano? It's obvious for the latter link, you can see the lighter color keys on top of darker ones, as the fortepianos were, the reverse of today's pianos, which have black keys on top of white ones.

I can note the difference of how a fortepiano sounds when compared to a modern piano. Not sure though if the sound is reproduced in a good way in my earbuds from a lousy MP3-player. I'd appreciate the transcript of this lecture, will PM you my email address in a few moments.


My YouTube channel

Casio PX-5S. Native Instruments Giant. Galaxy II 1929 Blüthner Baby Grand. Sampletekk Black. Production Voices: Estate Grand, Studio Grand Piano LE. Waves Grand Rhapsody Piano.
#2167375 - 10/16/13 07:07 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member
EdwardianPiano  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
Rainy England
Yes they were both fortepiano- so you could get to see what they sound like. Wasn't the 3rd movement played by the woman electrifying?
They sound magnificent played on my laptop on Linux audacious (downloaded them)with enhanced stereo! When I go at the middle fo the stairs( my stairs are at the end of my lounge) sounds like a real fortepiano is being played in my lounge! Try them on big speakers...

Last edited by EdwardianPiano; 10/16/13 07:10 PM.

https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.
#2167748 - 10/17/13 03:21 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 120
IreneAdler Offline
Full Member
IreneAdler  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 120
Washington
I completely understand you love for this piece, I am still head over heels in love with this piece; but why don't you work from a urtext version of the orginal piece even if it is a little daunting. I certainly was more than a bit intimidated when I begged my teacher to let me learn the 1st movement last summer. It was and still is a challenge to play correctly but therein lies the fun, playing the notes that Beethoven wrote and trying to be able to play them as well. In my opinion why put all the time and effort into learning a piece that has been transposed into a completely different key. Part of the beauty of the piece is the key, that he chose for the piece.

As far as pedaling, my teacher said that the pedal, the sustain pedal that is, should come down on the "And of 1" since you are counting in 2/2; so that the first notes are clearly heard and then sustained. If there is change in the bass notes then the pedal comes up to allow those notes to sound and then the pedal comes down again to sustain those notes.

Whatever you decide to learn, bon voyage as I always find a new piece to be akin to a journey.

#2167771 - 10/17/13 04:13 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member
EdwardianPiano  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
Rainy England
Irene, I have just been playing my beginner's one paged version- I'm getting better at it. I have found another one paged version that has more notes on the left hand so I am going to write them on my sheet and go on with that. I like the idea of building it up.
I was listening to this sonata last night by candle light with heavy rain and thunder outside- very atmospheric! Way better than watching iplayer!
Are you going to try the second movement?

There is also a version in the classical ebook of pianoforall that I bought this morning! In fact there is quite a few of Beethoven's in there- and Chopin's too!!!
Be awhile before I get to those though- it's chords first! I shall start the first book tomorrow.

Last edited by EdwardianPiano; 10/17/13 04:17 PM.

https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.
#2167778 - 10/17/13 04:43 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: TheodorN]  
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
EdwardianPiano Offline
500 Post Club Member
EdwardianPiano  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 800
Rainy England
Here is a link to free Beethoven sheet music:

http://www.all-about-beethoven.com/beethovenmusicsheet.html


https://edwardianpiano.wordpress.com/

Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy.
Ludwig van Beethoven.
#2167862 - 10/17/13 08:24 PM Re: Moonlight Sonata - pedaling [Re: EdwardianPiano]  
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 120
IreneAdler Offline
Full Member
IreneAdler  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 120
Washington
I agree with you Edwardian, buliding up to piece is a interesting idea. I have tried it yet with any of my "dream pieces". I suppose I would prefer to wait than play an edited version, because of one experience I had when I was starting back to playing almost two years ago in my method book that my previous teacher was using had adaption of Chopin's "Tristesse" and I was so overjoyed to learn it; I thought in my ignorence that was the actual piece that I loved so, and when I next listened to "Tristesse" I realized my error and felt so decieved that I haven't played an edited version again. Perhaps, I am being quite silly, but there it is.

I would like to learn both the 2nd and the 3rd movements to Beethoven's Moonlight, but my teacher has been assigning another pieces, I assume he has a good reason for not mentioning the later movements. I felt lucky enough that we were able to work on the 1st movement it was such a treat, I know I wasn't really quite ready for it when we started it. I can not say I much I love playing the middle part of the first movement is sounds like cascade of water, ohh Beethoven... if a gentleman dedicated a piece of music like that sonata to me I would find it very difficult not to elope with him, who cares if society approves, Giulietta Guicciardi you missed the boat there darling.


Moderated by  BB Player, casinitaly 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The Overtone Series and Timbre
by BB666. 05/30/17 09:04 AM
digital v vst v real
by jon1234. 05/30/17 06:37 AM
Kawai Logo Sticker
by PandaR1. 05/30/17 06:20 AM
Kawai KS-5F
by maki6664. 05/29/17 08:37 PM
Acousticsamples C7 $49
by bsntn99. 05/29/17 06:03 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Report Problems With New Forums
Report Problems with New Forums Here!
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics179,967
Posts2,631,159
Members87,925
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0