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Hmm... regarding Ryan's post, my logic tells me that it should be that way. The wider M3's should make it prone to disaster, in case the humidity changes by chance happens to widen it even further.

But my personal experience is quite different, my UT tunings stay acceptable longer than my ET's during the challenging humidity sways. I can't explain this. Maybe they are pulling themselves back towards the ET that they have grown accustomed to earlier? In that case, I will start encouraging ET tunings, then I can come in and do the personal painting

Regarding choirs, solo singers, string quartets, orchestras and so on, they intonate to the harmony, of course. If a piano is included, then that's the given reference point, which other musicians succeed to a varying degree in intonating to.

If there is no fixed pitch, all the intervals will be intonated from a musical point of view, not from our compromise (=temperament). There will be 3rds that are wider and narrower than ET, and there will be some ET 3rds, too. They will actually be all over the place.

As Isaac says, there is definitely a tendency to brighten (=widen) major 3rds if the harmony calls for it, especially on dominants and secondary dominants, in order to make the half step up to the tonic as small as possible. On the other hand, it's quite normal to use a considerably narrower major 3rd (approaching just) on the tonic chord ending a cadence, for example.

rxd -> I like your forgotten perfect pitch at A=457! At the pace we are moving up in the rest of Europe (england is still largely 440, isn't it), soon you will be right on target

If anything, the real burning issue of the day is still pitch. it hasn't been about temperament for many generations. It is a real issue here. The International Proms series uses 3 x 9' pianos in the Royal Albert Hall that are kept at a nominal 440 with the usual slight upward variance for practical purposes, and another 3 at 442-3. With the expense of moving them in and out of off site storage every few days for visiting orchestras, this will easily double the cost of supplying pianos over the season. That is only the main venue, there are many others.

When British orchestras tour, there is a sentence in the contract that is more of a reminder of the pitch difference. Orchestral musicians here are far more practical in this matter, most of them having a very active and varied freelance life outside the orchestra.

455-6-7 was an accepted concert pitch here and in parts of America, certainly NY, until 1895. The original proms were funded by an impresario/singer and his Harley St. Throat doctor on condition they used 439 at 65 degrees F. The way had been prepared by the new philharmonic changing a few years before. The record shows that the musicians readily accepted it.
457 persisted in all levels of the British brass band tradition until the mid 1960's. That change was accompanied by much rancour but the major manufacturers of instruments simply ceased making them in two different pitches.

I mention all this in order to put this temperamental (sic) argument into some sort of perspective.

The vocal intonation issue. I used to have much experience of opera both in rehearsal and performance. I entertained the possibility that the resonances of the theatre may have been an influence because I noticed differences in singers intonation between rehearsals in an empty theatre and a full one. The difficulties in hearing the orchestra from the stage are well known.

The choir director on the international recordings and broadcasts of christmas music in the British cathedral tradition was known for his exageration of melodic intonation to the relatively inexperienced choirboys, His lay clerks used to sing an upward scale, jokingly, that went so wildly sharp on the first 3 notes that they had to go down a semitone for the 4th degree of the scale. Judging by his sterling recordings and broadcasts, his teaching method worked. I have had the pleasure of singing in the same tradition under the direction of his successor. All this also probably has much to do with cathedral acoustics.

There was much consternation that I have no direct experience of when organ builders started inventing their own temperaments, some of them are far to extreme for modern practical use. There is an otherwise fine organ in the hall that I am usually given to deliver my discussions on tuning that I use in F# for a couple of excrutiating measures and then play a sequence from Bach that goes through the keys in order to demonstrate how it gets more in tune as the mother key is approached.

I totally agree, Pat, the complexities of flexible pitch intonation, accompanied and unaccompanied cannot be reduced to any formula.

Rxd, do you know Andrew Sinclair, perchance?

Yes. I assume you mean the opera director/producer but for those who know him, there could only ever be one Andrew. He's the quintessential opera director that central casting would send.
Our paths used to converge often at the Dartington international opera, mainly, but I haven't seen him since that ceased to exist. I can still picture him now.

He's directed several operas I've been in here in San Diego. Yes, absolutely, there can only ever be one Andrew! My first show with him was when we did the Covent Garden production of Lohengrin in 2000.



Me as a Teutonic knight...

He and I stay in touch on Facebook, when he's not here directing.

yesterday I tuned a vertical piano that have been delivered in june.

on the whole instrument I had to really turn 4 or 5 tuning pins (foot moved)

On the others I was under the impression I was working in fine tuning mode of a radio reciver or similar micrometric fine knob.

that was possible because it is easy for me to hear if a note is in the mood with others or no (base primarly on octaves but octaves serve to detection, other intervals confirm , with eventually 5th tuned directly)

I could not do that on an UT unless I where trained to recognize the level of distance from tempering of each interval.

In ET, the "map" of the tuning is easy to build.

Not an argument but my tunings are so stable that customers do not call me, only on recent pianos I experiment pitch corrections.

The context of course is moderate playing. Working for heavy handed and for intense playing mean something else but even in schools our work can be made easier a lot when stability is envisaged not only for unison but for the whole structure.

Some time ago I noticed as some (rare) old and experienced colleagues where obtaining very good tuning in schools, while the opposite is more the norm usually, and school pianos are really often approximate.

I had a good firm pin setting, did not had trouble in concerts with that, and did simply not imagine it could be made firmer.
I know today how that can be attained. goes better with ET. (sorry for the OT)

All you need is one of Marty's zauberalpenhorns. (I knew there'd be a tie-in sooner or later)

Didn't the Sandy Eggo Opera mount a production of The Magic Tuba?

Is not the thing he hold in left hand a sort of tuba?

OK may be just the pic is unclear,

Isaac,

Think of Mozart and Sousa at the same time and you will understand.

It's a joke!

Die Zauberflöte mit Sousaphon. Marking my calendar.

If you knew Sousa like I know Sousa
Oh. Oh. Oh what a gal.

Praps even more obscure.

Oh yes, several times.

I am NOT posting the photo of me in costume for that one...

Papageno's aria, accompanied by sousaphone...

Oy...

Tee-Hee-Hee - I was in the audience.

Here's the basso tubaralis soloist:



And here's the chorus finale:

In WW1 they used huge ear trumpets just like that to listen for enemy aircraft before radar. Is that what he's using that Tuba for?

rxd - you must be hooked on Qi also!

Yes. Is it on PBS? Those stations kept me in touch all the time I was living over there. There was a station here broadcasting "Prairie home Companion" but I can't seem to find it any more. That was always a reminder of Sunday afternoons in America either driving or sitting in the garden listening to the radio.

Well, actually Saturday afternoons for PHC. Lake Woebegone is fairly close to me.

Qi is found on YouTube and quickly posted after it airs on BBC. I'm enjoying the K series, as always.