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Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2157515 09/25/13 03:37 PM
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All I know is that my cp5 sounds and plays better than my korg Kronos.

I remember a funny incident on a gig with nord stage the original one. I ran it in stereo w two barbetta amps. During a break someone asked me why I was playing a harpsichord sound all the time.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
RonL #2157527 09/25/13 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RonL
All I know is that my cp5 sounds and plays better than my korg Kronos.

I remember a funny incident on a gig with nord stage the original one. I ran it in stereo w two barbetta amps. During a break someone asked me why I was playing a harpsichord sound all the time.


Awhile back when the Kronos was fairly new, my friend and I swapped keyboards for a night. At the time, I still owned the CP5. My friend had just sold his Kurz PC3X to buy the Kronos 73 .

His K73 worked out ok, but it was nowhere near the same playing experience with regard to control, sustaining of notes and being closer to an acoustic substitution as my CP5. On the other hand, my friend didn't dig my CP5. He thought the action was too light and of course felt the board was too heavy to carry around.

Before Nord went with the long release and string resonance feature...yes all their pianos sounded like a harpsichord . Especially when playing single note jazz lines/melodies. It's a good 60-70% better now, along with the newer piano samples, but still they suffer from thinning out in higher registers.

Yes like ando said, all DPs suffer from lack of sustain and just overall sounding way too thin compared to even an older, not well cared for, say Young Chang 6' grand.


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Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2157529 09/25/13 03:59 PM
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I suspect the reasons pianos sound bad through PAs have more to do with other factors anyway (than short samples). I have to wrestle with our soundman/bass player as he wants to compress,EQ and otherwise start mangling sounds at the drop of a hat. Many bands I see (and some I've played in unfortunately) have mediocre speakers and IMO nothing shows the flaws in a speaker like a piano...also of course the type of music matters, I pick the bright Studio Piano from my pc3 for live use in order to cut through with two guitar players in the band.

In any case, I'm really looking forward to trying this one. I've never seen a cp5 or cp50 in Orlando, hopefully the cps/cp40 will be in stock somewhere.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2157560 09/25/13 04:52 PM
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too funny that Dave mentions Young Chang 6 foot baby grand - I have a line on a gig in Novemeber in a room I played last year that comes with the same aforementioned piano - it is a dream gig. Show up w my ipad and have some fun. Nothing compares to a real piano.


Re: Spectral Component Modeling
RonL #2157570 09/25/13 05:17 PM
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I play that particular Old Chang 6'er every Thursday afternoon at LA Music Academy in Pasadena. It's pretty beat but is still better then any dp. Here's a not so good audio quality example of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibt8A-ALU94

The singer and guitarist are the students. The 3 horns, bass and myself are there to play with the students. There's usually a student drummer but in this case we were reading a new chart so Tony Inzalaco, the teacher, played on it.


https://soundcloud.com/dave-ferris

2005 NY Steinway D
Yamaha CP4
Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2157573 09/25/13 05:19 PM
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On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).

So the question is not if the new gigging boards like the Yamaha CP4 are good for the audience ; they are and 95% don't hear the difference anyway and they are there for the music experience as a whole. The question is if advancements in those three bottlenecks would heighten the pleasure of playing for the performer. Especially when the board is NOT out for a noisy gig, but when you're at home / in your studio or in a small intimate setting (e.g. small jazz combo / small ambiance). We are almost living in 2014 with all this crazy fast , big and cheap IT technology. That's why some here are amazed that even now we still have to put up with stretched and looped instruments, some even without sophisticated resonance algorithms or modeling.

A current KAWAI , Yamaha , or NORD is good for most occasions as they are, but they could have been so much better if the sampling artifacts that hunt us from the 90's had been phased out by now, considering the current status of technology, prices of electronic components and bright programmers in the ICT world. IMHO it's a miss we are still forced to have this discussion at all these days. Why put a horse in front of your vehicle when the rest of the world is already driving electric cars that do 1000 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes ? (Oh,...and have become incredibly cheap..)

Last edited by JFP; 09/25/13 05:23 PM.
Re: Spectral Component Modeling
JFP #2157643 09/25/13 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).

So the question is not if the new gigging boards like the Yamaha CP4 are good for the audience ; they are and 95% don't hear the difference anyway and they are there for the music experience as a whole. The question is if advancements in those three bottlenecks would heighten the pleasure of playing for the performer. Especially when the board is NOT out for a noisy gig, but when you're at home / in your studio or in a small intimate setting (e.g. small jazz combo / small ambiance). We are almost living in 2014 with all this crazy fast , big and cheap IT technology. That's why some here are amazed that even now we still have to put up with stretched and looped instruments, some even without sophisticated resonance algorithms or modeling.

A current KAWAI , Yamaha , or NORD is good for most occasions as they are, but they could have been so much better if the sampling artifacts that hunt us from the 90's had been phased out by now, considering the current status of technology, prices of electronic components and bright programmers in the ICT world. IMHO it's a miss we are still forced to have this discussion at all these days. Why put a horse in front of your vehicle when the rest of the world is already driving electric cars that do 1000 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes ? (Oh,...and have become incredibly cheap..)
+1

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
JFP #2157645 09/25/13 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).

So the question is not if the new gigging boards like the Yamaha CP4 are good for the audience ; they are and 95% don't hear the difference anyway and they are there for the music experience as a whole. The question is if advancements in those three bottlenecks would heighten the pleasure of playing for the performer. Especially when the board is NOT out for a noisy gig, but when you're at home / in your studio or in a small intimate setting (e.g. small jazz combo / small ambiance). We are almost living in 2014 with all this crazy fast , big and cheap IT technology. That's why some here are amazed that even now we still have to put up with stretched and looped instruments, some even without sophisticated resonance algorithms or modeling.

A current KAWAI , Yamaha , or NORD is good for most occasions as they are, but they could have been so much better if the sampling artifacts that hunt us from the 90's had been phased out by now, considering the current status of technology, prices of electronic components and bright programmers in the ICT world. IMHO it's a miss we are still forced to have this discussion at all these days. Why put a horse in front of your vehicle when the rest of the world is already driving electric cars that do 1000 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes ? (Oh,...and have become incredibly cheap..)


+2


"But its got a crap keyboard action Dave ... no amount of great sounds help that."
Dr. Popper

Piano Student at University of São Paulo - Ribeirão Preto
Music Education and Piano Pedagogy at Music Department of FFCLRP - University of São Paulo

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2157647 09/25/13 08:08 PM
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I think this kind of points out that it is easy to focus on things that are easily measured and objectively compared, which may give those things disproportional weight compared to things that are less easy to quantify but can be just as important, if not more so. "Plunky" attacks, and decays that are too steep or too short are more irritating to me than loops and stretches, but these flaws are not so easily measured and described, and maybe that's why we spend more time talking the loops and stretches.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
JFP #2157649 09/25/13 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).


Of course, there is one (or rather, two - and maybe another pretender) current DP that will do all that, and more, i.e. you can customize the sustain, decay and various resonances to levels that far exceed that of any acoustic piano, and with no looping or stretching of any sort.

But whether that's what you're looking for is a different matter. I was reminded of that when watching Elton John in a TV homage program recently. The "acoustic grand" he was playing says Yamaha, but the sound that came out was totally synthetic. And the lid was closed, so, goodness knows what was hiding beneath that grand piano shell.

He obviously didn't want a 'real piano' sound for his gigs........


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Spectral Component Modeling
MichPiano #2157685 09/25/13 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by MichPiano

The Price on the CP1 is very high in comparison with CP4 so:
Who please can tell me and to everybory the differences between:
*YAMAHA CP1 vs * YAMAHA CP4 ?


Quote
*I think it is because the sounds that is generated by Phisycal Modeling make the CP1 more expessive (All Eps - FM Pianos), am i right?


No the CP1 and CP4 have exactly the same (or almost) EP's and FM pianos

Quote
*The CP4 its all sample based with some tricks by Phisycal Modeling on the Pianos, Eps and FM DX Pianos and the rest of the sounds is some MOTIF XF sounds.


Exactly the same as the CP1

Quote
*Is the Keyboard Action difference the 3 sensors?


The CP4 is graded and 3 sensor the CP1 is not graded and only has two

Quote
*Can someone make a list with all the differences between thouse two?
Thaks you.


The basic difference is the CP1 was designed to compete with the Vpiano price point and its a big heavy thing thats nearly 4 years old and has now been discontinued . The CP4 is new, lightweight (for a Yamaha) has the new CFX Grand piano and a new graded 3 sensor action. The CP4 is a far superior board (and yes its less then 1/2 the price).
CP1 is far better looking wink


"I'm still an idiot and I'm still in love" - Blue Sofa - The Plugz 1981 (Tito Larriva)
Disclosure : I am professionally associated with Arturia but my sentiments are my own only.
Re: Spectral Component Modeling
bennevis #2157783 09/26/13 02:57 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by JFP
On DP's in general the pain factor is indeed :

- sustain ,
- short decay especially in higher registers and
- absence of- , or unrealistic resonance behaviors.

Result is that on acoustics you can still play better melodic lines in the higher registers and glue the notes together. All while 'playing' with damper pedal and your fine finger techniques. Hit a few highest register notes on an upright and listen to the decay (looooooooong) and do the same thing on a DP. You'd be amazed (of the difference).


Of course, there is one (or rather, two - and maybe another pretender) current DP that will do all that, and more, i.e. you can customize the sustain, decay and various resonances to levels that far exceed that of any acoustic piano, and with no looping or stretching of any sort.

But whether that's what you're looking for is a different matter. I was reminded of that when watching Elton John in a TV homage program recently. The "acoustic grand" he was playing says Yamaha, but the sound that came out was totally synthetic. And the lid was closed, so, goodness knows what was hiding beneath that grand piano shell.

He obviously didn't want a 'real piano' sound for his gigs........


How ironic. What you were hearing was a modelled Roland piano sound!


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Spectral Component Modeling
EssBrace #2157799 09/26/13 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
[quote=
How ironic. What you were hearing was a modelled Roland piano sound!


Wow!!!

The great Elton playing a V-Piano?

Hidden in a Yamaha grand cabinet?

Pray, spill all the beans (assuming you've got any, of course wink ).


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2157810 09/26/13 04:44 AM
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Not a V-Piano. RD-1000. That's the main tonal content of his piano sound with some reinforcement from Yamaha power grand. Under the lid is a full CF-IIIS action, frame, soundboard and strings.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
pv88 #2157818 09/26/13 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pv88
IMPORTANT NOTE:

Is everyone aware that "Athan Billias" (on page 6) deliberately hijacked and changed the original poster's (i.e., Rhodie73) subject line to "Spectrum Component modeling?"

Shame on him for changing the original topic line.

Isn't an apology due?

Extra note:

The original subject line is:

"Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?

All rights for the original topic belong to Rhodie73.


Athan was a very recent joiner at the time of that post. And a very welcome one. The matters under discussion around that time were almost exclusively about SCM and Athan answered many points as well as he could. The main thread title remains unchanged. I don't see what the problem is Richard.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
EssBrace #2157823 09/26/13 05:37 AM
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I just now deleted the post you "quoted" as it apparently doesn't make any difference if you do change someone else's "subject" line since as soon as another member replies to the changed post it remains changed. Also, I wasn't finished editing my post you quoted as there is a typo in it.

Question:

I'm just making the point that ANYONE in this forum can change an original poster's subject line at their own whim and should this be allowed?

What if the original poster started with "Beginner looking for digital piano - advice please" and later someone interjects with:

"Where can I find a hot date?"

This changes everything.

Extra note:

Not that anyone in this forum would go that far off topic with changing the original poster's subject line.

But the fact is you can do it.

Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
pv88 #2157827 09/26/13 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pv88
I just now deleted the post you "quoted" as it apparently doesn't make any difference if you do change someone else's "subject" line since as soon as another member replies to the changed post it remains changed. Also, I wasn't finished editing my post you quoted as there is a typo in it.

Question:

I'm just making the point that ANYONE in this forum can change an original poster's subject line at their own whim and should this be allowed?

What if the original poster started with "Beginner looking for digital piano - advice please" and later someone interjects with:

"Where can I find a hot date?"

Do you see the problem?

Extra note:

Not that anyone in this forum would go that far off topic with changing the original poster's subject line.

But the fact is you can do it.


Changing the subject isn't such a problem, as the topic title (as seen on the front page of the forum) remains unaffected.

Deleting posts after they have been responded to is something that I would like to see prevented, however. Fortunately, quoting individuals who are predisposed to such behaviour ensures that the flow of a thread can still be followed.

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
Kawai James #2157864 09/26/13 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
...Deleting posts after they have been responded to is something that I would like to see prevented, however. Fortunately, quoting individuals who are predisposed to such behaviour ensures that the flow of a thread can still be followed.


Quite so James. Which is exactly why I quoted Richard, who is forever tampering with his messages both public and private after they've already been "published" and read by others. It's rather annoying and perhaps even disrespectful to other readers/contributors.

And I agree, deleting posts should not be possible, or deleting the entire text leaving just a full-stop. Previous threads become totally useless when a significant contributor removes their content (that may have been responded to within the thread several times or which may have caused the thread to take a different direction). The whole thread can be rendered almost meaningless then. What we've said, we've said. It's a moment in time. We may subsequently be proved wrong or out of step with others but that's no reason to remove or significantly alter content in my opinion.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
pv88 #2157866 09/26/13 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by pv88
"Where can I find a hot date?"


Not sure. Craigslist seems to have quite a busy personal section. Try that.


C. Bechstein Model B | Roland RD-1000 |
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
EssBrace #2158185 09/26/13 06:28 PM
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I think we are free to post/edit/delete/add to our posts anything we wish as this is an open forum and this is a free America, right?

If we give in to what others are telling us to do, then we don't have much left in the way of freedom, do we?

No one is going to tell me as to what I do - in this regard.

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