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Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2156674
09/24/13 06:54 AM
09/24/13 06:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Strong, Maine
There is something to be said for not worrying about the extreme bass and treble in the initial learning process. Once you get the basics down and learn what to listen for the rest will be easier and make more sense.

(I still run into occasional tunings where the bass and treble are ignored, and the guy got paid!) crazy


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
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Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2156675
09/24/13 07:02 AM
09/24/13 07:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Duane Graves
Originally Posted by Phil D
Duane, I'd recommend rather than looking to spend money on tuning devices, I'd first spend money on a book about tuning.


I am taking a tuning & technician course now although I have just started it. I realize that when you ask greenhorn questions you are going to get kicked around a bit but in the midst of the fury you get some real helpful answers. Take this thread for instance, out of the 20 or so hits I am able to learn about a dozen new things. I'm jumping the gun a little bit and my questions but I have always thought that if you don't know something and you want to know ask someone who does know and most times you will find some people who are willing to give you the answer you want and more....I am thankful to those who sincerely want to help.


Until you do not have basics on how intervals are managed, temperament build, you cannot understand how those low and high notes are tuned.

they have to be in agreement with much of the rest of the piano, and a tuning follow a sort of curve, beat wise.

Nothing what you write tells me you have the slightest idea on what mean tuning a piano, but may be you are just silent, it is difficult to write you answers without being sure you can understand them. At that point I am just unsure.

COurage


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2156703
09/24/13 08:44 AM
09/24/13 08:44 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
Boston, MA
B
bellspiano Offline
500 Post Club Member
bellspiano  Offline
500 Post Club Member
B

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 864
Boston, MA
Hi, Duane --

I think it would be easier to help you if we had any sense that you were listening to and trying out the things suggested. In my case, I wrote to you privately several times, and I said that the Korg tuner was not appropriate for piano work and that I usually started tuning in the middle of the keyboard, in the temperament octave F3-F4, as I was taught. The next thing I know, you are writing on the Tech board that you are disappointed that your Korg tuner is not adequate on "the first few notes," meaning A0, A#0, and up -- which are usually not the first notes of a tuning. I gathered from that that my advice was either unread or unhelpful, so it was hard to know how to proceed.

Several people have expressed concern about the adequacy of your course, and I know you've told me that you bought Reblitz. What does Reblitz suggest about how to begin a tuning? Have you tried the tuning sequence that he recommends? If so, how did that work for you? Have you considered buying any other books and studying them? What do they say about tuning patterns?

Have you been reading about how piano strings vibrate, the definition and significance of partials, what is meant by "stretch"? What specific questions do you have about what you have read?

You mention that you want to do home service. Are you planning to learn how to replace a string? the many things which cause a key to stick (not move freely)? what to do when you are faced with a spinet with crumbling plastic elbows? I had to learn all those things and more before I went to people's house, and learning them took a long time.

Many people are giving you good suggestions here. What happens when you experiment with them? Just saying, "Thank you for your good suggestions, which I will think about," doesn't give anyone much direction for further help. And, truly, it worries me that you believe you will be able to tune other people's pianos by January. At my school, as I have also told you, we were examined on unisons and the temperament octave just before Christmas, and not everyone passed those exams, even working at tuning five half-days a week for more than three months.

I wish you well, and I hope you are able to realize that piano work involves a lot more than moving a string so that the sound agrees with a signal on an inexpensive computer. This work is a lot of fun and a wonderful challenge, and it deserves to be taken seriously. I do not wish to be offensive but to open for you the doors of intellectual possibility.
With best wishes, Dorrie Bell


Dorrie Bell
retired piano technician
Boston, MA
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2156713
09/24/13 09:04 AM
09/24/13 09:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
O
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
Originally Posted by Duane Graves
Chuck...thank you for some great advice there...I'm home at lunch and have not had time to read it all but these are some great points you bring up....things I am wondering about as I do not have access to a top device....and I am only tuning and checking methods on my own piano at this point but by the first of the year I would think I will have gained enough understanding to branch out a little....time will tell....but, anyway, thank you, Duane.


You are right it is important for tuners to eat correctly;)


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Olek] #2156720
09/24/13 09:08 AM
09/24/13 09:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
C
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chuck Behm, CPT-E  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote
"You are right it is important for tuners to eat correctly" - Olek


Finally! (Thank God) A statement on this forum that everyone will agree on! In fact, I think I'll go eat some more right now! Chuck



Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2157067
09/24/13 08:21 PM
09/24/13 08:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 32
D
Duane Graves Offline OP
Full Member
Duane Graves  Offline OP
Full Member
D

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 32
Dorrie....REALLY....all this drama....wow!!!!...it was just an innocent question....get a grip....anyway, thanks to some of you who sincerely try and do help others get up to speed you know who you are and you are appreciated sincerely.....cheers, Duane.

Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2157103
09/24/13 09:32 PM
09/24/13 09:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
C
Chuck Behm, CPT-E Offline
500 Post Club Member
Chuck Behm, CPT-E  Offline
500 Post Club Member
C

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 849
Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote
"Dorrie....REALLY....all this drama....wow!!!!...it was just an innocent question....get a grip..." - Duane


Duane - I think what Dorrie is expressing is more along the lines of frustration and concern. Those of us who have been in the business for a while (I'm in my 40th year, I'm sure Dorrie is very experienced as well) have seen far too many well-meaning people attempt to get into the business, only to fizzle out before they really got things off the ground. Usually, it's those people who aren't willing or able to put any skin into the game that end up stocking shelves at Walmart or doing some other job which doesn't require any significant commitment of time and finances (which the tuning / repair business does).

Imagine if someone looking to get into the auto body paint shop went to his local hardware store and purchased a few cans of Rust-Oleum and hung up his shingle. Would you imagine that they would be in business for very long? Well, that's the approach and attitude you seem to be exhibiting.

Anyway, I think Dorrie does very much have a grip on things. She's being realistic. Best wishes, Chuck


Last edited by Chuck Behm; 09/24/13 09:33 PM.

Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer
www.pianopromoproductions.com
515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2157125
09/24/13 10:25 PM
09/24/13 10:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Strong, Maine
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,613
Strong, Maine
Hmmm. I think I'll go get a grip on a sandwich.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2157179
09/25/13 12:16 AM
09/25/13 12:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
rysowers Offline
3000 Post Club Member
rysowers  Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,219
Olympia, WA
I thought Dorrie's post was great!


Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: Duane Graves] #2157241
09/25/13 04:32 AM
09/25/13 04:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
Numbered Offline
500 Post Club Member
Numbered  Offline
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 728
Dorrie, your post is spot on!



Numbered
Re: How do you tune the first few notes.... [Re: bellspiano] #2158054
09/26/13 02:04 PM
09/26/13 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 78
S
Samthetech Offline
Full Member
Samthetech  Offline
Full Member
S

Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 78
Originally Posted by bellspiano
Hi, Duane --

I think it would be easier to help you if we had any sense that you were listening to and trying out the things suggested. how to proceed.
You mention that you want to do home service. Are you planning to learn how to replace a string? the many things which cause a key to stick (not move freely)? what to do when you are faced with a spinet with crumbling plastic elbows? I had to learn all those things and more before I went to people's house, and learning them took a long time.

Many people are giving you good suggestions here. What happens when you experiment with them? Just saying, "Thank you for your good suggestions, which I will think about," doesn't give anyone much direction for further help. And, truly, it worries me that you believe you will be able to tune other people's pianos by January. At my school, as I have also told you, we were examined on unisons and the temperament octave just before Christmas, and not everyone passed those exams, even working at tuning five half-days a week for more than three months.

I wish you well, and I hope you are able to realize that piano work involves a lot more than moving a string so that the sound agrees with a signal on an inexpensive computer. This work is a lot of fun and a wonderful challenge, and it deserves to be taken seriously. I do not wish to be offensive but to open for you the doors of intellectual possibility.
With best wishes, Dorrie Bell



Good advice, and I would like to add that you cannot possibly hope to be tuning by January if you don't have a qualified tuner checking your work now. Why? Because you aren't a qualified tuner and cannot possibly know if your piano sounds proper. Attacking Dorrie for giving you excellent advice merely tells everyone else that you aren't mature enough to work on customer's pianos and we're wasting our time giving you advice.


Piano Technician, 3 years experience

And why yes, I know I'm a girl!
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