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How do you tune the first few notes....and the last few notes also....do you just guess....what's the secret because nothing picks up the notes....
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nothing picks up the notes.... Your ears do!
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Hi Duane - I assume you're referring to the first few notes in the bass, and the last few notes in the treble - and furthermore that you are using an electronic tuner which is not registering those notes. Is that correct, or are you speaking of something else? Chuck
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer www.pianopromoproductions.com515-212-9220 "The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
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Hi Duane - I assume you're referring to the first few notes in the bass, and the last few notes in the treble - and furthermore that you are using an electronic tuner which is not registering those notes. Is that correct, or are you speaking of something else? Chuck You're right, Chuck, trying to learn some basics and well my ear is pretty good but at this point I don't rely heavily on the electronic dev. I do some of course. Tuning these low bass and high treble notes is almost impossible....I need to know the clue so I can practice it.....tks, Duane.
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What device are you currently using? There are some that do better than others - sometimes using an external mic helps...
Ron Koval
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Though I use Stopper's program in a hybrid sort of aural/visual tuning, I never use any machine in the low bass, ie monochords and some of the low bichords depending on the instrument.
Tune down from the temperament last.
For the monochords,and depending on the piano some of the lowest bichords, first get the single octave reasonably close to quiet, then with the dampers up, roll a 4 or 5 octave octave and fifth arpeggio (no 3rds only octave and fifths). With that argeggio kicking the whole belly into motion, sustaining and coupling with the tuned treble, as you tune the each monochord, find the place where full sustained resonance of the instrument musically sounds best. Musically, this place becomes obvious when you hit it.
When you find this place, especially in a small instrument, but some larger instruments as well, if you roll only octaves and fifths, when the tuned note comes into its proper place, the 3rd (or some octave transposition of the 3rd) with become musically audible. It will sound as if you were actually striking some 3rd..but you didn't strike any 3rds, its coupling the 3rds)
I never listen for beats here, as the very low bass is such a complex sound. The "perfection" needed and musically required is musically audible. I stress the word musically audible as listening to beats will favor 1 partial match over a complex host of possible choices...partial matching here becomes for me a mind game, rather than a musical exercise.
Jim Ialeggio
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Duane - Ron is exactly right. Not all electronic tuners are created equal. Some will help you do a great job, even without the use of aural checks, some are just passable, and some are essentially worthless. I'm assuming you didn't purchase a top of the line tuner (earlier threads which you originated alluded to this decision) and now you're beginning to understand some of its limitations. If you're just tuning your own piano at this point, it's not a big deal, but if you're beginning to charge for your tunings, it is. If your aural abilities are still at an uncertain certain stage (and if you're guessing as to where a note should be set, as you mentioned in your original post, you're still very uncertain), then you really need a top quality tuning device if you want to have satisfied customers. Just to illustrate what a quality tuner will do for you, I went out to my shop this morning to check on the tuning of one of the pianos just recently restrung. Here's the reading I got on my tuner for low A: [img:center] [/img] As you can see, low A is 1.7 cents flat. This reading, by the way, is rock solid and comes in without a bit of hesitation. Checking high C, this is the reading I get: [img:center]http:// [/img] C8 is showing at 12 cents flat, which is normal in that the strings are still stretching a bit. The reading on this end of the scale can be a bit on the wavering side (as indicated by the movement of the needle), but it always come in. The point is that with a quality tuner, such as my Verituner, you can zero in on exactly where all the notes of the piano should be set (including those on either end) while you are working on your aural skills. No need for guesswork. Other guys will comment on how you can learn to do all of this on your own with out an electronic tuner, but if you're anything like me, you know that your hearing has its limits. I certainly am not ashamed of the fact that at age 63 I don't hear (and never will) like I once did. My Verituner, however, is as accurate as ever. Plus it customizes each tuning to the piano at hand. As far as the cost, look at it this way. Since I bought my Verituner, I've done just under 5000 tunings on it, at around $100 a pop. Not once in all those tunings have I had a complaint on my tuning - quite the contrary. I continually get referrals from customers whom I have tuned for and who love the way their piano sounds. I paid around $1800 for the tuner, and if my math is right my profit on that investment is around 270 fold. (I wish my other investments did that well!) With a cheap tuner, or inexperienced ears, you'll be hard pressed to build a profitable business. Since I've started my business 40 years ago, I've always purchased the tools and supplies I felt I needed to do the job right. A good quality tuner is one tool I wouldn't dream of being without. If you can't afford a good tuner at this point, at least start setting aside a portion of each tuning check for purchasing one down the road. Anyway, that's my take on your situation - I'm sure others will chime in shortly to prove how misguided I am in my thinking. Be that as it may. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best in getting your business off the ground. Chuck
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer www.pianopromoproductions.com515-212-9220 "The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
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What device are you currently using? There are some that do better than others - sometimes using an external mic helps...
Ron Koval I just bought a Korg OT-120 for around $92 by the time it gets to me and I am disappointed in it as it won't register anything in the bass until C2 and treble no needle movement until E6 probably D6 is more accurate....needless to say I am disappointed in that acquisition. I use my Seiko ST-747 (older than the hills at around #30-$35 new??? I use it for my guitar and mandolin tuner) at it goes quite low (lower than the Korg) but still not good and in the treble it does not move until about the same as the Korg???? any suggestions as to an electronic dev......I really can't afford to buy a good dedicated piano tuner right now but I may have to....also I downloaded Tune Lab 97 and it won't register either....I want to get going and tune some pianos to be learning this trade faster but.....any advice.....Duane.
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When tuning the low bass notes, there is a basal beat that I listen for. If I can hear that basal beat I can tune the note. If I can't hear that basal beat I hit the note an octave higher. The basal beat comes out clearly and I can tune that low note. I usually end up tuning the low notes that way within the lowest octave. And of course the octave sounds better when I stretch the octave, or I set it just to the flat side of no beats. As for the high notes, I listen for a certain ring to the note and no beats. This comes from years of experience. I tune aurally when I start tuning the octaves, after I have set the temperament. If I have to, because of background noise or such, I can tune totally aural. Again this comes from years of experience.
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Chuck...thank you for some great advice there...I'm home at lunch and have not had time to read it all but these are some great points you bring up....things I am wondering about as I do not have access to a top device....and I am only tuning and checking methods on my own piano at this point but by the first of the year I would think I will have gained enough understanding to branch out a little....time will tell....but, anyway, thank you, Duane.
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also I downloaded Tune Lab 97 and it won't register either... Tunelab is definitely your best bet for having something workable to practice with. I'm assuming you mean it didn't pick up any sound; is that across the piano or just in the high and low registers? Tunelab goes down to A0 and up to C8 with quite good accuracy, but I have found that an external microphone helps. I have also found that my Android tablet does a better job than my PC. There are iPhone/iPad and Android apps for Tunelab available on their website (not available from the general app store though I don't think). I'd suggest trying one of those if you have a tablet or smartphone.
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Last I checked, the Verituner app for an iPhone was $600. Plus, on the VT Forum, there are numerous custom stretches.
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Duane, I'd recommend rather than looking to spend money on tuning devices, I'd first spend money on a book about tuning.
Upright & Grand Piano Tuning by CArl-Johan Forss would be a good one to start with. Reblitz is terribly out of date. The new book by Mario Igrec, Pianos Inside Out, is definitely worth purchasing as well.
You need to understand the principles at work here, and it is obvious that you really don't. Start from the beginning.
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"Duane, I'd recommend rather than looking to spend money on tuning devices, I'd first spend money on a book about tuning.
Upright & Grand Piano Tuning by CArl-Johan Forss would be a good one to start with. Reblitz is terribly out of date. The new book by Mario Igrec, Pianos Inside Out, is definitely worth purchasing as well.
You need to understand the principles at work here, and it is obvious that you really don't. Start from the beginning." - Phil D. Duane - I believe this is excellent advice, whether or not you eventually become a dyed-in-the-wool aural tuner. If for no other reason, doing your research will help you understand the suggestions people have been giving you. Chuck Behm
Tuner/Technician/Rebuilder/Technical Writer www.pianopromoproductions.com515-212-9220 "The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke
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I do not have access to a top device. Ok, you might do better with software instead of a dedicated device. Was it a laptop that you used to download Tunelab? Do you have an iphone/ipod touch, or other smartphone? (Blackberry doesn't have anything that you can use for pianos) Tunelab should be much better than the other options you mentioned - might take some troubleshooting to make sure the mic is working and set right... Ron Koval
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I do not have access to a top device. You do, You just aren't using it. It sits on your shoulders. It has two superb microphones and marvelous audio computing functions.
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You do, You just aren't using it. It sits on your shoulders. It has two superb microphones and marvelous audio computing functions. I use a machine as an aid...but the final arbiter is the musical sense which comes from your ear. When I first started tuning, of coarse struggling with the lever, I tuned an aural bass by ear, by the seat of my pants, without thinking about what I was doing... I just followed what I wanted, as a pianist, to hear in the coupled sounds. 1st timer luck..it sounded great. Then I tried to figure out what the devil I had done in that seat of the pants tuning. In the process of over-thinking it, for the next 6 months, I tuned still-born, life-less basses...'till I started thinking like a musician again. While you are following all the excellent software advice above, don't forget to include your musician's ear in the mix. Jim Ialeggio
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You do, You just aren't using it. It sits on your shoulders. It has two superb microphones and marvelous audio computing functions. I use a machine as an aid...but the final arbiter is the musical sense which comes from your ear. When I first started tuning, of coarse struggling with the lever, I tuned an aural bass by ear, by the seat of my pants, without thinking about what I was doing... I just followed what I wanted, as a pianist, to hear in the coupled sounds. 1st timer luck..it sounded great. Then I tried to figure out what the devil I had done in that seat of the pants tuning. In the process of over-thinking it, for the next 6 months, I tuned still-born, life-less basses...'till I started thinking like a musician again. While you are following all the excellent software advice above, don't forget to include your musician's ear in the mix. Jim Ialeggio Hey, I said that in the very first reply! I guess not being a tech, it wasn't true til one of you guys said it.
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Duane, I'd recommend rather than looking to spend money on tuning devices, I'd first spend money on a book about tuning. I am taking a tuning & technician course now although I have just started it. I realize that when you ask greenhorn questions you are going to get kicked around a bit but in the midst of the fury you get some real helpful answers. Take this thread for instance, out of the 20 or so hits I am able to learn about a dozen new things. I'm jumping the gun a little bit and my questions but I have always thought that if you don't know something and you want to know ask someone who does know and most times you will find some people who are willing to give you the answer you want and more....I am thankful to those who sincerely want to help.
Last edited by Duane Graves; 09/24/13 06:09 AM.
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