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Alan,

I have a son who is learning how to play the baroque flute. This is not the same as the piano of course, but it certainly shares a kinship (more so than soccer or tennis smile ).

His interest in the traverso was kindled by a chance meeting with a historical performance professor at a top conservatory. As a result, he decided to move from the modern flute to the earlier wooden instrument. We got a good quality baroque flute for him and then looked locally to find someone who could get him started on it. Face-to-face training does indeed have its advantages.

Unfortunately, we concluded that the relationship between him and this teacher was probably not going to go anywhere, at least not quickly. We approached the professor with the idea of Skype. She had not done that before, but was willing to give it a try. The slight delay makes duo playing impossible, and she cannot -- obviously -- physically reposition him for optimal fingering, tone, posture, you name it. That's the down side. The upside is that he gets training from one of the top people in the US.

I think you can guess where I'm going. You have made a series of rather strong (and mostly un-argued) assertions.

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No matter how fantastic the teacher is, teaching piano through Skype is and will always remains at a "group class lecturer" level.


Quote
And the webcam gives the students a feeling of "unprofessional" or "casual" because you are looking into a screen, just like a TV.

So yes the idea is good but it will take a long while for you to get serious students.



Categorical generalizations only require a single example as refutation.

You strongly dislike the approach. That seems quite clear. This is fine -- no one is under any obligation to use distance teaching. And there are indeed drawbacks to this form of instruction. But I think some of your strongest feelings seem quite personal to you. They are not generally true of the medium or generally true for all teachers who try to use it.

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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Alan,

I have a son who is learning how to play the baroque flute. This is not the same as the piano of course, but it certainly shares a kinship (more so than soccer or tennis smile ).

His interest in the traverso was kindled by a chance meeting with a historical performance professor at a top conservatory. As a result, he decided to move from the modern flute to the earlier wooden instrument. We got a good quality baroque flute for him and then looked locally to find someone who could get him started on it. Face-to-face training does indeed have its advantages.

Unfortunately, we concluded that the relationship between him and this teacher was probably not going to go anywhere, at least not quickly. We approached the professor with the idea of Skype. She had not done that before, but was willing to give it a try. The slight delay makes duo playing impossible, and she cannot -- obviously -- physically reposition him for optimal fingering, tone, posture, you name it. That's the down side. The upside is that he gets training from one of the top people in the US.

I think you can guess where I'm going. You have made a series of rather strong (and mostly un-argued) assertions.

Quote
No matter how fantastic the teacher is, teaching piano through Skype is and will always remains at a "group class lecturer" level.


Quote
And the webcam gives the students a feeling of "unprofessional" or "casual" because you are looking into a screen, just like a TV.

So yes the idea is good but it will take a long while for you to get serious students.



Categorical generalizations only require a single example as refutation.

You strongly dislike the approach. That seems quite clear. This is fine -- no one is under any obligation to use distance teaching. And there are indeed drawbacks to this form of instruction. But I think some of your strongest feelings seem quite personal to you. They are not generally true of the medium or generally true for all teachers who try to use it.


I speak from my personal experience, and yes I taught through Skype before.

And for baroque flute, I am in no intention to "look down" at this particular instrument, the fact is, the physical skill required to perform this instrument is comparatively lower than piano. Also it has a limited amount of repertoire compared to piano.

So by comparing teaching baroque flute and teaching piano is frankly comparing apple vs. oranges.

Your another point is that it is difficult to find good teachers for baroque flute locally, which is very true since it is not a popular instrument. But the situation is different from piano. You can for sure find adequate piano teachers in every town.

I think it is quite clear why baroque flute teaching through Skype is relatively more doable than piano.

Do you know anyone teaching Rakhmaninov's 2nd piano concerto through Skype? Liszt Sonata through Skype? Mussorgsky's picture at an Exhibition through Skype? No? This is what I meant with "remains at a 'group class lecturer' level."

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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Alan Lai


No matter how fantastic the teacher is, teaching piano through Skype is and will always remains at a "group class lecturer" level.

Alan, I've been enjoying your posts, and this is the first one that I have to disagree with, and here's why.

Teaching first of all is a thought-through activity. The teacher uses the things at his disposal: books, scores, an instrument, his knowledge, the student - and he decides what he will teach, and how he will teach it, using what he has available. A book, score, location, or equipment do not do the teaching. What you will do with what you have available will determine what kind of lesson it will be. An excellent and resourceful teacher can do a lot even in that medium.

Of course working with someone in person is preferable, especially for the physical side of teaching. But if a student cannot access any teacher, or cannot access that teacher, then the Internet can give possibilities.

When you write "group class lecturer", are you thinking of these generic prerecorded lessons that are found everywhere on the Net? Yes, these are addressed to a group, generic, so they are that.

I have also watched sample Skype lessons where a student plays, and the teacher says "no - this part over here would sound better this way", demonstrates, student copies, teacher says "yes, that's it" - or maybe demonstrates a better way physically to do some passage. I can't see this for beginners. But on the other hand, I think a lot of in-person lessons do go that way.

It is what you do with the tools you have available. There can be one-on-one where you work out something, teach something - the student works through whatever that is later in his or her own practising, and has the advantage of reviewing the lesson if it has also been recorded. (Again, some in-studio teachers now record lessons for students to review). The student can also create sound files, video clips that can be shared via a Youtube private setting - for either to see where the student is, for teacher feedback. Relevant music theory can be taught via written material, homework etc. using e-mail, Dropbox and similar. It can be quite DEEP, and nothing like a general lecture.

However, if I were looking for a teacher with whom to study via Skype, I probably would not go to a site featuring such teachers as a group, but rather find such teachers via how they present themselves otherwise.

Thanks for the long reply.

Let me try to speak from my experience.

Teacher has to use all tools at his/her disposal, very true. With Skype, your tools are limited. Your tone depends on the quality of your microphone, the speed of your internet connection, and the quality of speakers at your student's house. Your articulation depends on the same set of technological limitations. Your posture/body language is limited by the lens of your webcam, also the speed of your internet connection. Your dynamics/phrasing are limited. If you want to have some physical interaction with your student, say make him/her feel the weight dropping of the arm, firm finger tip and first joint, is out of the question.

So, what you really have with Skype? Language and (hopefully) a good connection for both you and your student.

Of course there are professionally setup recording studios just for this purpose.

For another poster I replied regarding the baroque flute, does that professor of baroque flute gained his reputation by teaching Skype lessons? Or because he's famous through traditional teaching, therefore people want to Skype with him?

Again, I would like to ask you the same question. Do you see anyone teaching Rakhmaninv's 2nd piano concerto, Liszt Sonata, or Mussorgsky's Picture at an Exhibition through Skype?

I understand this Skype teaching is very very tempting. Just like any other new technology or new iPhone released. I keep reading these webcam lessons threads once in a while. And of course it is certainly doable. But thinking this can get serious and professional is...not very likely.

Last edited by Alan Lai; 09/23/13 01:54 AM.
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I'll be honest that I do a lot of skype teaching, for composition, though and not piano. The reason is simple: My students come from all over the world: Texas, NYC, Australia, England... you name it!

So there's no other way around it.

And I'm very happy for the results and so are my students, as far as I can tell!

Of course composition is hugely different than piano, but I will admit that I would largely prefer to have the students face to face. It's simply a different thing all together!

In any case this is what we have and this is what we get and this is what we give!

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Originally Posted by Nikolas
I'll be honest that I do a lot of skype teaching, for composition, though and not piano. The reason is simple: My students come from all over the world: Texas, NYC, Australia, England... you name it!

So there's no other way around it.

And I'm very happy for the results and so are my students, as far as I can tell!

Of course composition is hugely different than piano, but I will admit that I would largely prefer to have the students face to face. It's simply a different thing all together!

In any case this is what we have and this is what we get and this is what we give!

Indeed, and I've seen plenty of music theory lessons, too.

P.S. I'm sure in the future when Digital Pianos can be connected peer-to-peer through internet, i.e. what you play can transfer through internet to your student's digital, as if you are playing yourself, we will see another wave of "Internet P2P piano lessons" threads. laugh

Last edited by Alan Lai; 09/23/13 02:43 AM.
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And for baroque flute, I am in no intention to "look down" at this particular instrument, the fact is, the physical skill required to perform this instrument is comparatively lower than piano. Also it has a limited amount of repertoire compared to piano.


This statement reveals real ignorance, outside of your experience. It also reinforces your tendency to assert things. The physical skill requirements are different, but no less. No pianist has ever had to contemplate the relationship between which one of a dozen fingering choices for a particular note will produce the best tone for that note within a particular passage, each choice changing the pitch a bit. (Same for horn, BTW) And when last I checked, pianists didn't have to worry about being 20 cents flat or sharp every time they push down a key. [In piano, to "blow" a note has a rather different meaning … smile ]. This is getting into that hoary and rather silly topic about which instrument is "the hardest to play." Suffice to say, Skype is clearly a second best way to learn in comparison to face-to-face, but in many circumstance it can be better, given limited alternatives.

The size of the repertoire is unrelated to the physical skill demands. And the size of that repertoire, within its time period is quite large.

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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
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And for baroque flute, I am in no intention to "look down" at this particular instrument, the fact is, the physical skill required to perform this instrument is comparatively lower than piano. Also it has a limited amount of repertoire compared to piano.


This statement reveals real ignorance, outside of your experience. It also reinforces your tendency to assert things. The physical skill requirements are different, but no less. No pianist has ever had to contemplate the relationship between which one of a dozen fingering choice for a particular note will produce the best tone for that note within a particular passage. And when last I checked, pianists didn't have to worry about being 20 cents flat or sharp every time they push down a key. This is getting into that hoary and rather silly topic about which instrument is "the hardest to play."

The size of the repertoire is unrelated to the physical skill demands. And the size of that repertoire, within its time period is quite large.

You share the same tendency to assert things when you call another people on internet you barely know ignorant.

With your reasoning, your previous post also reveals your real ignorance regarding piano.

See how quickly this discussion is getting boring?

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Hey, I'll bet $ to doughnuts my experience on the piano is quite a bit more hefty than yours on flute … smile

SRSLY.

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Originally Posted by Piano*Dad
Hey, I'll bet $ to doughnuts my experience on the piano is quite a bit more hefty than yours on flute … smile

SRSLY.

OK, what does this achieve?

P.S. I was the principal flautist in my school orchestra. You know, Asians want people to learn 2 instruments and piano does not count. smile

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Alan,

If you read what I have said about Skype, you will see that I have made no claims for its superiority, other things equal. But other things are often not equal, so its disadvantages can sometimes be more than offset by its virtues. What I have reacted to in your writing is the tendency toward glib, and frankly demeaning one-liners, that essentially tell other people (R0B, for instance) that they must be offering something that doesn't rise above crappy group-quality lessons, or that their work seems casual and unprofessional. You did feel the need, later on, to qualify the "group lesson" comment by talking about Rachmaninov piano concertos not being taught via Skype, though I have no idea whether or not that .... assertion, is true.

You did not like my assertion of your ignorance.

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You share the same tendency to assert things when you call another people on internet you barely know ignorant.


I suspect several people in this thread on the Internet, people who "you barely know" may have also found your dismissal of them rather annoying.

BTW, the baroque flute is a lot harder than the silver flute. grin


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Alan, thank you for your response. You have pointed out that a teacher's playing will not come out accurately for the student to hear. Does a lesson consist only of a student hearing his teacher play? Is this for imitation of examples? The other part - physical aspects of playing - yes, that is a handicap. But none of this reduces Skype lessons to a group lecture. And here I am speaking from experience.

Let's take "group lecture" verbatim. You have an audience of students, and a professor who talks about things. Does this professor observe each individual student during his lecture? Does he give feedback on what that student is doing? Does he tell that student... and each student ... what to try, and observe, and give feedback? Does he ask the student for feedback? Of course not. It is NOT ANYTHING like a group lecture.

No, students cannot always access a good teacher (or sometimes, any teacher) where they are.

Your "group lecture" designation insults every good teacher who also works via Skype, and who has sought the means of teaching via that medium. In fact, there is a lot of garbage that passes as teaching in traditional studio lessons. The bottom line is always the calibre of the teacher and the sincerity of the student.

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Originally Posted by Alan Lai
Your another point is that it is difficult to find good teachers for baroque flute locally, which is very true since it is not a popular instrument. But the situation is different from piano. You can for sure find adequate piano teachers in every town.



I am not so sure that adequate piano teachers exist in every town.

And finding them requires sorting them out from the large number of hobby piano teachers.

It seems very likely to me that skype lacks some of the advantages of F2F teaching.

It seems very likely to me that quality teaching is hugely important.

I would rather have a superb teacher over skype than a poor teacher in person. Is there a point at which a mediocre teacher in person becomes a better choice than a superb teacher on skype? I'm not sure. I'm inclined to think nothing outweighs the teacher quality parameter.

If you have special requirements you may have no choice. Maybe a pianist with carpal tunnel or neck problems needs that one teacher who has success with this, or a brass player with an upstream embouchure, etc.


gotta go practice
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