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Re: Spectral Component Modeling
dewster #2154691 09/20/13 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by Tritium
I mean, all they needed to say was something to the effect: "Our CVP-609 features solid wooden keys, just like on our finest acoustic grand pianos".

And then you'd find out that was semi-false too. Like the AG keys having the tip to pivot dimension consistent with a short-ish grand, and not the 9' they talked up in their earlier literature.

OT: Why do DP companies come to us after the fact? Why not before they build something to see what we want? I get corporate secrecy when it comes to real secrets, but the entire approach here is just so crazily backwards. Like the customer is always wrong or something.
Remember that guy from TIME Magazine? praising the AVANTGRAND's Concert-grand piano action. He later retracted; thanks -in part- to this forum's B.S. Police.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Pete14 #2154746 09/20/13 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Remember that guy from TIME Magazine? praising the AVANTGRAND's Concert-grand piano action. He later retracted; thanks -in part- to this forum's B.S. Police.


What are the odds I'd be by tonight, watching the CP4 thread, only to find this. What the heck are you talking about Pete? I "retracted"? Are you suggesting I wasn't being sincere?


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Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2154751 09/20/13 09:29 PM
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No; I should've said you clarified you initial position. As Dewster indicated, Yamaha implied a Concert-grand action, and obviously, you did not check your facts before re-stating that indeed it was a concert-grand action.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2154754 09/20/13 09:42 PM
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Oh snap!

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Pete14 #2154757 09/20/13 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
No; I should've said you clarified you initial position. As Dewster indicated, Yamaha implied a Concert-grand action, and obviously, you did not check your facts before re-stating that indeed it was a concert-grand action.


Got it. I don't remember what Yamaha did or didn't imply -- I don't want to hang my initial misread that it was a replica CFIII action on anyone but myself -- but I did check every fact available to me at the time. And when someone in the forum said they thought it was actually a C3 action, I was able to get Yamaha to divulge what they hadn't elsewhere, namely that the N2 was using the C1 Conservatory Classic Collection piano action.

The point being, no one was correct, until I got that information from Yamaha.

Last edited by Matt Peckham; 09/20/13 09:45 PM.

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Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2154762 09/20/13 09:56 PM
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Matt, I was out of line (trying to be funny, I suppose); honestly, I wasn't expecting you to stop by; I apologize for my choice of words; however, I will say that what Yamaha has been doing is outright wrong. It is one thing to use marketing hype, and an other to outright misinform. They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Pete14 #2154765 09/20/13 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Matt, I was out of line (trying to be funny, I suppose); honestly, I wasn't expecting you to stop by; I apologize for my choice of words; however, I will say that what Yamaha has been doing is outright wrong. It is one thing to use marketing hype, and an other to outright misinform. They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.


Ha! I wasn't expecting to *be* by either... I've been so crazy-busy lately, just haven't had time to browse. But then the CP4 comes along, I'm curious, it's Friday, and here I am. smile

Yeah, if Yamaha's doing as you say and calling veneer "wood," that's messed up.


Yamaha AvantGrand N2
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Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Pete14 #2154906 09/21/13 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Don't know about the Clavinovas, but the white keys on my CP1 are constructed around a solid piece of wood -- it's not just some veneer glued on to the sides. I hate myself for not taking better photos when I had the CP1 opened up, because some of the pictures that have been circulating here are very easy to misinterpret.

When viewed from below, the white keys have a plastic ribbon that runs along the length of the key. This ribbon actually runs on top of the wooden material. If you grab the ribbon in the middle (length-wise) you can lift it up a little and this reveals the solid piece of wood used.

Bottom line: Yamaha's marketing can be aggressive, but accusing them of lying is a bit harsh, IMO.



Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
Rhodie73 #2154910 09/21/13 08:31 AM
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Anyone seen the 7 new U-tube video demos on the numa concert. Studio Logic has got the soundboard,sympothetic and damper resonance down. It really does make the piano come alive like a real grand . However I dont like their tiny- sounding Rds. If only they could steal Yamahas felt hammer suitcase Rds, or if Yamaha could steal Studio Logics resonance technigues! The waiting would be over

Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
Rhodie73 #2154921 09/21/13 09:05 AM
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Interesting you mention the Numa Concert. I started to compare it again against the other boards , like the CP4 and every time I am amazed by how good the Steinway based grand preset sounds. (Not the Fazioli, which I like much less). To my ears it is really pleasant and very good. It's just the Studiologic reputation and the keys are OK but not the best inthe market. Sometimes there are sales thatish the price around €1500 . I wonder if it's worth the try.Onlycare for the main piano sound, the rest is ...

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
jve #2154968 09/21/13 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jve
Originally Posted by Pete14
They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Don't know about the Clavinovas, but the white keys on my CP1 are constructed around a solid piece of wood -- it's not just some veneer glued on to the sides. I hate myself for not taking better photos when I had the CP1 opened up, because some of the pictures that have been circulating here are very easy to misinterpret.

When viewed from below, the white keys have a plastic ribbon that runs along the length of the key. This ribbon actually runs on top of the wooden material. If you grab the ribbon in the middle (length-wise) you can lift it up a little and this reveals the solid piece of wood used.

Bottom line: Yamaha's marketing can be aggressive, but accusing them of lying is a bit harsh, IMO.

Hokey smokes!

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[Linked Image]
Taking a closer look, the key does indeed be a solid hunk of wood with plastic laminate on top and plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. For me the gap towards the back in the above photo was the tell.

I believe you jve, and will go back through my posts and correct my previous references to this issue. I sincerely apologize to Yamaha and to everyone here for my spreading of this misinformation. I did so due to my own honest misinterpretation of the photos (not trying justify my actions).

How can the CP4 weigh so little with that much wood in there?

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
dewster #2154972 09/21/13 11:23 AM
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It still doesn't explain this marketing pronouncement -- i.e. the part where they claim a "solid" wood key is superior in structural stability versus an equivalent which is constructed of a multi-ply laminate:

Quote
The Clavinova NW (Natural Wood) keyboard could only be made by Yamaha, with woodworking techniques perfected from over a century of building fine acoustic pianos. Like a grand piano, the keys are made of solid wood that has undergone the long drying process required for use in a musical instrument. By selecting only the highest quality sections of each piece of wood, keys that are more resistant to warping and deforming than those of laminated wooden keyboards are created.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling
Rhodie73 #2154990 09/21/13 12:10 PM
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Instead of us guessing, sometimes rightly, and sometimes not, with regard to these points, it would be so helpful if Yamaha would just step up to the plate and clarify. I was reminded that Athan is a very busy marketing director and probably doesn't have the time to discuss things with forum members, but in that case, why not appoint someone else to do the job? Yamaha, via Athan, seemed to be on the verge of becoming more responsive than hitherto, but the real questions (the ones that fall outside the narrow marketing talking points) are not being answered.


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Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
Rhodie73 #2154996 09/21/13 12:21 PM
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Yamaha's online presence outside motifator may be pretty sparse, but I think the sight of a Roland rep engaging in give-and-take on any forum would be a sign of the apocalypse.

Athan did make a good point about motifator providing good interactive product support... Yamaha probably beats everyone in that respect. You just have to be willing to go over to their house instead of waiting for them to come to yours. However, as someone mentioned, there is an issue that there is no area there into which to discuss the pianos, so that is a bit of a hole in their online support presence.


Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
anotherscott #2155000 09/21/13 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Yamaha's online presence outside motifator may be pretty sparse, but I think the sight of a Roland rep engaging in give-and-take on any forum would be a sign of the apocalypse.

We did have a brief mini-apocalypse a couple months back on KC when Roland's OV Valle showed up on the VR-09 thread. But the sight of all those unleashed, keyboard-wielding beasts lumbering toward him was clearly too much, and so he retreated posthaste to the safety of the Roland blogs.


"you don't need to have been a rabbit in order to become a veterinarian"

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Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
voxpops #2155015 09/21/13 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by voxpops
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Yamaha's online presence outside motifator may be pretty sparse, but I think the sight of a Roland rep engaging in give-and-take on any forum would be a sign of the apocalypse.

We did have a brief mini-apocalypse a couple months back on KC when Roland's OV Valle showed up on the VR-09 thread. But the sight of all those unleashed, keyboard-wielding beasts lumbering toward him was clearly too much, and so he retreated posthaste to the safety of the Roland blogs.

You guys are hilarious!

I'm reminded of a post I read recently (another forum) where the comment was not about the thread's SNR (signal/noise ratio) but SDR (signal/drama ratio). (Sorry, not calling anyone a drama queen, just noting that heightened drama tends to produce more posts, and that in the end it's 90% about the drama.)

Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
dewster #2155042 09/21/13 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
How can the CP4 weigh so little with that much wood in there?

Don't know exactly what kind of wood they use, but it seems quite light and porous ... which makes its usefulness rather questionable. Actually, one would think that for the wooden material to make a difference, it would have to extend back to the pivot point, at least -- the way Kawai does it.

cheers

Last edited by jve; 09/21/13 02:15 PM.
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
dewster #2155047 09/21/13 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dewster
Originally Posted by jve
Originally Posted by Pete14
They continue to make the claim of using a wooden keyboard on their clavinovas; even after the fact that we've all seen the pictures of their keys. These keys are made of plastic with a side panel of wood.

Don't know about the Clavinovas, but the white keys on my CP1 are constructed around a solid piece of wood -- it's not just some veneer glued on to the sides. I hate myself for not taking better photos when I had the CP1 opened up, because some of the pictures that have been circulating here are very easy to misinterpret.

When viewed from below, the white keys have a plastic ribbon that runs along the length of the key. This ribbon actually runs on top of the wooden material. If you grab the ribbon in the middle (length-wise) you can lift it up a little and this reveals the solid piece of wood used.

Bottom line: Yamaha's marketing can be aggressive, but accusing them of lying is a bit harsh, IMO.

Hokey smokes!

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Taking a closer look, the key does indeed be a solid hunk of wood with plastic laminate on top and plastic mechanism strip on the bottom. For me the gap towards the back in the above photo was the tell.

I believe you jve, and will go back through my posts and correct my previous references to this issue. I sincerely apologize to Yamaha and to everyone here for my spreading of this misinformation. I did so due to my own honest misinterpretation of the photos (not trying justify my actions).

How can the CP4 weigh so little with that much wood in there?
These are from a CP1?, which weights over 50lbs?

I'm making an assumption that the shock of key bottoming out is less if it's all wood...assuming that, then having the key hitting on plastic can't have same feel. Feel free, to teach me on the subject. Bottoming out is my main issue when trying a new keyboard.


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Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
jve #2155066 09/21/13 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jve
Don't know exactly what kind of wood they use, but it seems quite light and porous ... which makes its usefulness rather questionable. Actually, one would think that for the wooden material to make a difference, it would have to extend back to the pivot point, at least -- the way Kawai does it.


Acoustic actions are made of seriously lightweight wood. I suspect this is the same stuff. Pine, I guess?

Well, to decide whether it "makes a difference" we would have to agree what that difference would be. We've never really had a consensus on that. I've always thought inasmuch as wood vs plastic matters it is because wood has different vibration damping properties. If that's the case it wouldn't matter whether the wood goes all the way back.

The way Kawai does it, there's a long piece of wood that pushes up on a plastic/metal mechanism. One could argue that it's a similar thing in the sense that there's a piece of wood that pushes a piece of plastic that rotates on a piece of metal.

I like Kawai's wood action (I have one), but I wouldn't necessarily conclude right away that none of its advantages are present in the NW action. I've always liked NW (at least, the non-stage version), despite thinking until now that the wood was essentially ornamental.

Last edited by gvfarns; 09/21/13 08:18 PM.
Re: Possible Yamaha CP4 in the future?
Rhodie73 #2155075 09/21/13 03:37 PM
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The Clavinova CLP 990 uses a similar action to that of the current Kawais. At some point Yamaha switched to the folded action used in today's Clavinovas. I think that one of the reasons the Kawai action is so quiet and thumpless has to do with the fact that there are basically no contrivances under the front end of the key (from the player's perspective.) All the action/mechanical noise happens at the end of the key.

Last edited by Pete14; 09/21/13 03:38 PM.
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