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#2160735 - 10/02/13 05:16 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hi Mark
Thanks for the clip of Lennie, I didn't know that ! It would have been difficult to play the arps at such speed with so much precision.

Thanks also for confirming about the role of contrary motion for "legitimising" doubled 3rds.

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#2160853 - 10/02/13 01:25 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Cus... A google search on something like "arnold schoenberg contrary motion" will turn up a lot of wordy stuff that really isn't fun to read. But it'll also give a sense of how important contrary motion is, just in an overall way.

#2161088 - 10/03/13 07:24 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]  
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Hi Mark
I've glanced at a couple of articles.
1. Contrary motion between the outer parts
2. Inversion (by definition, the mirror image in contour of the original form)
seem to be idiomatic of Schoenberg's compositions.

What was cool is the role voice-leading can play in freeing you from the limitations of a changes approach.

As you mentioned in your lesson, voice-leading is about lines rather than chords.

#2161115 - 10/03/13 09:27 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Originally Posted by custard apple


What was cool is the role voice-leading can play in freeing you from the limitations of a changes approach.



Cus, that is exactly the central idea! Very nicely stated!

So a way to look at the FH 4-part style is bass line paired to a melody but with as much contrary motion as possible. Then fill in the inner two voices.

CM isn't always possible. But *usually* if it is it's the best choice.

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#2161621 - 10/04/13 07:43 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook


So a way to look at the FH 4-part style is bass line paired to a melody but with as much contrary motion as possible. Then fill in the inner two voices.



Here I attempt contrary motion in the bridge of ATTYA.
https://app.box.com/s/km4fqifx9r0bokz5yvp5

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/tk1uwdjp0fg5n5vhau6c


As for learning Chorale #1, I will spend a few more days on Phrase 2.

#2161656 - 10/04/13 09:13 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Cus, for me thats a really interesting example that you've posted. What's interesting about them is the experiment with contrary motion

Your connections (chord-to-chord) are fairly free. In a theory class focused on "common practice" they'd most likely get covered in red ink! But, having said that, this isn't a theory class! More importantly, the focus for the moment is on the larger idea of contrary motion.

You might try, for fun, playing the Barry Harris scale in contrary motion ( C D E F G G# A B). The G# makes that motion much better than it would be with CM applied to a major scale.

Also, as an experiment, you might try (at the piano) playing clusters of notes (2, 3, or 4 notes) and then slowly spreading the clusters apart with contrary motion. You may find that contrary motion is enough on it's own to bring a little order to the chaos.

And just to point out the principle again, we're not talking about following specific common practice rules about which note to double or which chord goes here or there. Of course those things can be added in. But for right now, it's to the larger principle of contrary motion .

#2161773 - 10/04/13 03:01 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Cus,

How far along are you on chorale #1. Are you going to try and play the whole thing through?

#2162016 - 10/05/13 07:13 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hey Knots
I'm still on Phrase 2. I don't want to move onto Phrase 3 until I can master:
a) singing a voice, playing another voice; and
b) singing a voice, playing the 3 other voices.

(I sound really bad singing tenor. I don't sing bass !)

I work on the chorales every few days.
So I think I will take 2 months for a chorale.

Yes my aim is to play the whole thing through. I will be happy to play it very unfluently with huge stops and starts while I get used to passing the middle voices around.

How are you going ?

#2162017 - 10/05/13 07:20 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook

You might try, for fun, playing the Barry Harris scale in contrary motion ( C D E F G G# A B). The G# makes that motion much better than it would be with CM applied to a major scale.



That was fun indeed Mark.
CM applied to a major scale doesn't sound symmetrical to me, as the voices don't prepare or lead my ears to the two dissonances, namely
1. G(LH) F(RH)
2. F(LH) G(RH)

The BH scale to my ears had much stronger voice-leading properties. CM applied to it sounds symmetrical.
1. Ab(LH) F(RH)
2. G(LH) G(RH) - this 5th is a very strong sound
3. F(LH) G#(RH)

#2165445 - 10/12/13 10:13 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Cats,

Here's the 1st Chorale:
https://app.box.com/s/aykelzfspsvh3vfjyw19




#2165508 - 10/13/13 02:52 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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wow .. there is some *gorgeous* playing in that recording. ESPECIALLY the very, very, very last phrase. to my ears.

bestowed is the royal order of cats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skrr-UgHeHg

#2165545 - 10/13/13 06:20 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]  
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Originally Posted by knotty
Cats,

Here's the 1st Chorale:
https://app.box.com/s/aykelzfspsvh3vfjyw19



Hi Knotty
This is like SUPER SUPER SUPER beautiful. You must be really really proud.
I especially liked your dynamics and your fun ending.
You have mastered some very difficult phrases in such a short learning period.
Well done !
I am yet to start Phrase 3.

Which chorale is up next for you ? I'm sorry I've fallen so far behind you.
Every few days I'm doing a 2 bar composition in 4 voices.

#2165595 - 10/13/13 09:58 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Thanks Cats!

Cus, we're both taking slightly different approaches which is probably fine.
I am actually not sure which to do next. Either I find another in G or E-, for ex. the 3rd, or I just proceed to #2.

#2169526 - 10/21/13 02:04 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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How are the Cats doing?
2nd Chorale started really easy and packs up a punch on the last 2 measures. Funny what an extra measure can do. Lots of interesting chord movement.

#2169597 - 10/21/13 03:57 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hi Knots
Still on Chorale 1. I've started Phrase 3 woohoo ! I'm finding this phrase much easier than Phrase 2.
Every few days, I'm still doing a 2 bar composition in 4 voices to revise the principles of Chorale 1.

I'm looking forward to your Chorale 2.

#2169885 - 10/22/13 05:48 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hey again you CATS

From Chorale 1, Phrase 3, I derive Principle 4 "soprano and tenor move in contrary motion".

Here I apply it to ATTYA.
https://app.box.com/s/i4d4jflmw88yifhpkegn

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/7e6rsykgbps69npk6a8a

#2170302 - 10/22/13 09:38 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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cusCAT!

That's very nice! It's sounding like and starting to look like chorale-style. What's great is the overall sound will soon begin to transfer into your playing. It probably has already!

About rules and the right and wrong of it all: Yes, there are bits in your phrase that wouldn't fly in a "classical common practice" theory class working from a "classical common practice" theory textbook. These would be textbooks such as those used in the first few years of uni theory courses.

But because this rule stuff is very loose in jazz and because composers in general took liberties as well, it's may often be better to think of "guidelines" rather than "rules."

So the common guideline is there's usually no more than an octave between tenor and alto or between alto and soprano. But in jazz there's liberty (often extreme liberty) with spacing and for a lot of composers there is too.


My opinion is do exactly as you're doing - look at Bach as the example, take what you want and what you can and go from there. Over time all guidelines and rules will all emerge - and then you can decide what to do with them. .... In the meantime, I'll try to put together a few simple (very, very short) examples to show some of the common guidelines ...

But, really, the example you've posted is great!


#2170457 - 10/23/13 05:32 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Thank you very much for listening Mark and for your helpful comments.

Yes when I am "in the moment" during an improv session, I surprise myself with a couple of Bach-like voice-leading bars. Even if it sometimes turns out that I heard 3 voices and not all 4.

Thanks for your guideline on the octave spread.

#2170471 - 10/23/13 06:42 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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cus(CAT!),

and it's perfectly fine for textures to lose and add voices.sometimes 3 voices are more than enough. sometimes 2 voices are fine, sometimes just 1 ... and ...

About "0" voices ... Michael Carvin (the drummer) has said one of his goals is to "will" the drums to play themselves. He's said he's seen Pharoah Sanders "will" the saxophone to play itself and that's where the idea comes from ...

this may or may not be a true story but it's true that it's a story ... smile

#2170516 - 10/23/13 08:45 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Very nice Cus. Very Choralesque.

#2171043 - 10/24/13 06:33 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]  
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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
cus(CAT!),

and it's perfectly fine for textures to lose and add voices.sometimes 3 voices are more than enough. sometimes 2 voices are fine, sometimes just 1 ... and ...



Hi Mark
I find it incredibly kool that the master of 4 voices Fred Hersch chose to play Softly as in a Morning Sunrise with 1 voice, it sounded very refreshing, cheeky and insouciant.

Hi Knotty
Thanks for listening to my work.

#2171065 - 10/24/13 07:45 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Cus, I guess FH's Softly as In a Morning Sunrise is the example. Nice pick! Very nice!

Bach has a famous piece from a violin partita (#5 i think). the piece from that is the Chaconne in Dm as it usually referred to.

Brahms transcribed it for piano but left hand ONLY!

I've played through it a bunch of times with two hands. Much easier that way .... ! ... But for our discussion it's pretty much a piece with 1 line. Except Bach has ways to make one line into more than one line.

His cello suites and the violin partitas are all great examples ...

// piano score
http://imslp.org/wiki/Violin_Partita_No.2_in_D_minor,_BWV_1004_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)

// piano performance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91KBiPlit-Y

// violin performance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bVRTtcWmXI

#2171683 - 10/25/13 07:29 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hey Mark
Thanks for telling me about this amazingly awesome 15 min of improvisation by Bach. It sounds surprisingly modern and is so well played by Zimerman.
No wonder the great Brahms was inspired to transcribe it.

#2174465 - 10/30/13 05:32 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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I recorded #2 really slow and kind of sloppy. been trying to record much faster but I always make a couple of small mistakes. post now or try one more night?

#2174487 - 10/30/13 06:36 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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recordings of chorales are kinda like new software (release early, release often!) and you know cus and i are looking forward to hearin' it!


#2174544 - 10/30/13 09:38 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]  
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Hey Knots
Your "sloppy" equals my "good" smile

#2174558 - 10/30/13 10:14 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Good one Mark!

Cus , are you working on it still. What section are you on?
I think the 3 Rd one might be easier.

#2174656 - 10/31/13 03:06 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hi Knotty
Still on Chorale #1 Phrase 3.
I've been watching the Barry Harris video on applying diminished chords to ATTYA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCsw0NjXY1U

Barry uses Bach's voice-leading principles.
So I've been composing a couple of measures using Barry's concept of borrowing the dim below the chord.

#2176601 - 11/03/13 07:29 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Alright then, here's #2 from earlier this week. I'm not very happy with it but here it is anyway. Software style.

https://app.box.com/s/n49m0zlehqzf63lvh1vs


#2176754 - 11/04/13 04:25 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]  
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Hey Knots
Thanks so much for posting this beautiful chorale. I can't believe how quickly you learnt it.
What are your plans now ? Stick with it for longer or move on to another one ?

I am up to Chorale #1 Phrase 5.

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