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Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: La_plus] #2153627
09/19/13 09:07 AM
09/19/13 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by Alan Lai
Originally Posted by La_plus
Overrated: Everything by him that is popular.

Underrated: Everything by him that is not popular.


That's a too simplified view. Some of his popular works deserve the popularity without any question. Some of his unpopular works are not that great and deserve the un-popularity.


I think it's a matter of what one considers popular. I meant his mainstream works. Pieces like Fantaisie Impromptu, the Minute Waltz and the famous early E-flat Nocturne. These works are overrated, while his relatively unpopular works, for the most part, deserve just as much recognition if not more.
Popular is not the same as overrated. The popular works are more popular(in the sense of being more well known or familiar)because they are within the reach of non professionals and thus studied more frequently.

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Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: pianoloverus] #2153645
09/19/13 09:27 AM
09/19/13 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Popular is not the same as overrated.


Of course it's not. Something being overrated is an opinion. Being popular and being overrated are two mutually exclusive things; one does not rely on the other to be true. It just happens to be my opinion that the few works mentioned above are over-popular, which would be the same as to say they are overrated.

Quote
The popular works are more popular(in the sense of being more well known or familiar)because they are within the reach of non professionals and thus studied more frequently.


And how exactly is everything else not "within the reach" of non-professionals?

Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: fnork] #2153665
09/19/13 10:00 AM
09/19/13 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by fnork
Underperformed:

Prelude op 45



YES I LOVE THIS PIECE!!!



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Polyphonist] #2153667
09/19/13 10:01 AM
09/19/13 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Pogorelich.] #2153673
09/19/13 10:05 AM
09/19/13 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.

You think the 3rd is played more than the 2nd? Not in my experience.

A Youtube search on "chopin piano sonata" has 6 out of the first 7 professional recordings as the 2nd.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Polyphonist] #2153677
09/19/13 10:09 AM
09/19/13 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.

You think the 3rd is played more than the 2nd? Not in my experience.

A Youtube search on "chopin piano sonata" has 6 out of the first 7 professional recordings as the 2nd.


After 10 years of living here, have only heard the 2nd played in ONE masterclass and ZERO concerts/recitals. The 3rd, however... I lost count.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco] #2153678
09/19/13 10:11 AM
09/19/13 10:11 AM
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I agree with Polyphonist. The 2nd is far more popular.

I think with Chopin, you will find that the average person will gravitate towards the early work more because it's easier to listen to for them. They're missing out.

Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Pogorelich.] #2153679
09/19/13 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.

You think the 3rd is played more than the 2nd? Not in my experience.

A Youtube search on "chopin piano sonata" has 6 out of the first 7 professional recordings as the 2nd.


After 10 years of living here, have only heard the 2nd played in ONE masterclass and ZERO concerts/recitals. The 3rd, however... I lost count.

I've definitely heard the 2nd performed here more than the 3rd. Just counting masterclasses, I've heard it 3 or 4 times (the 1st movement), and the 3rd 1 or 2.


Regards,

Polyphonist
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Pogorelich.] #2153681
09/19/13 10:14 AM
09/19/13 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.


After 10 years of living here, have only heard the 2nd played in ONE masterclass and ZERO concerts/recitals. The 3rd, however... I lost count.


Yes, but you are living in the past.

Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: La_plus] #2153686
09/19/13 10:17 AM
09/19/13 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Popular is not the same as overrated.


Of course it's not. Something being overrated is an opinion. Being popular and being overrated are two mutually exclusive things; one does not rely on the other to be true. It just happens to be my opinion that the few works mentioned above are over-popular, which would be the same as to say they are overrated.
Popular is not the same as overrated but over popular is the same as overrated?
Originally Posted by La_plus
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The popular works are more popular(in the sense of being more well known or familiar)because they are within the reach of non professionals and thus studied more frequently.


And how exactly is everything else not "within the reach" of non-professionals?
Technically too difficult.

Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco] #2153688
09/19/13 10:20 AM
09/19/13 10:20 AM
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Fine, I'm insane.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: pianoloverus] #2153704
09/19/13 10:33 AM
09/19/13 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Popular is not the same as overrated but over popular is the same as overrated?
Correct. By adding 'over' one has asserted their own personal opinion. Saying "he is over-popular" is the same as saying "he is too poplar", which is nothing more than an opinion.
Quote


Originally Posted by La_plus
And how exactly is everything else not "within the reach" of non-professionals?
Technically too difficult.
Oh, I see.

Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco] #2153799
09/19/13 12:45 PM
09/19/13 12:45 PM
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Overrated: Nocturne Op. 9/2, Nocturne Posthumous, Waltzs, Op. 64 Nos 1 and 2
Fantaisie-Impromptu

Underplayed: Bolero, Rondo a la mazur, Rondo Krakowizk, Sonata No. 1, Scherzo no. 4, Mazurka Op. 24 No. 2, Impromptu No. 3 in Gb

Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco] #2153812
09/19/13 01:00 PM
09/19/13 01:00 PM
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I'm astounded that the Barcarolle op 60 is not performed more, it's amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU-5u2dmXdM

I have a soft spot for the piece that is, when it is programmed, usually paired with it, the Berceuse op 57 because the melody is so astoundingly beautiful- even though the piece itself is musically not all that interesting. It's more or less a "theme and variations" or "passacaglia" in structure. That said, there's something about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1CXY5NHvms

Overrated: I have to concur with those who have mentioned Op. 9 #2.


Last edited by Brad Hoehne; 09/19/13 01:02 PM.

1999 Petrof 125-111 (upright)
Casio Privia PX-330

Currently working on:
Chopin Etude op 25 #2 and op 10 #5
Schubert Op 90 #2, #3
Playing by ear and "filling out" pop tunes
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Brad Hoehne] #2153819
09/19/13 01:14 PM
09/19/13 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne

I have a soft spot for the piece that is, when it is programmed, usually paired with it, the Berceuse op 57 because the melody is so astoundingly beautiful- even though the piece itself is musically not all that interesting. It's more or less a "theme and variations" or "passacaglia" in structure.

Maybe you want to say that the Berceuse is not harmonically interesting, because it's so harmonically static (until the end). But even that's not true-- the fact that that harmony doesn't change throughout is very, very interesting. (Maybe even unique at that time?)

At any rate, the Berceuse is certainly musically interesting. One of Chopin's many innovative, daring, understated masterpieces.


-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco] #2153830
09/19/13 01:30 PM
09/19/13 01:30 PM
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For some reason I've never clicked with the berceuse and the barcarolle. There's something about them that bores me.


All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: beet31425] #2153840
09/19/13 01:41 PM
09/19/13 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by beet31425

Maybe you want to say that the Berceuse is not harmonically interesting, because it's so harmonically static (until the end). But even that's not true-- the fact that that harmony doesn't change throughout is very, very interesting. (Maybe even unique at that time?)

At any rate, the Berceuse is certainly musically interesting. One of Chopin's many innovative, daring, understated masterpieces.

-J


Good point. Yes, I meant that it is "harmonically static". However, it is extremely interesting in form- if only insofar as it doggedly sticks to the ostinato in the bass- and the ornamentation of the melody is at the pinnacle of its style.

I wouldn't say "unique at that time" however, as many baroque pieces (re: Pachelbell's canon) used a short repeating ground figure in a similar way.

Last edited by Brad Hoehne; 09/19/13 01:49 PM.

1999 Petrof 125-111 (upright)
Casio Privia PX-330

Currently working on:
Chopin Etude op 25 #2 and op 10 #5
Schubert Op 90 #2, #3
Playing by ear and "filling out" pop tunes
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Brad Hoehne] #2153856
09/19/13 02:01 PM
09/19/13 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brad Hoehne
Originally Posted by beet31425

Maybe you want to say that the Berceuse is not harmonically interesting, because it's so harmonically static (until the end). But even that's not true-- the fact that that harmony doesn't change throughout is very, very interesting. (Maybe even unique at that time?)

At any rate, the Berceuse is certainly musically interesting. One of Chopin's many innovative, daring, understated masterpieces.

-J


Good point. Yes, I meant that it is "harmonically static". However, it is extremely interesting in form- if only insofar as it doggedly sticks to the ostinato in the bass- and the ornamentation of the melody is at the pinnacle of its style.

I wouldn't say "unique at that time" however, as many baroque pieces (re: Pachelbell's canon) used a short repeating ground figure in a similar way.


Fair enough, although the Pachelbell's pattern is a sequence of eight separate harmonies. A far cry from the Berceuse's continual I-V-I-V ad infinitum.

-J


Beethoven op.110, Chopin op.27/2, Liszt Vallée d'Obermann
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: TheHappyMoron] #2153888
09/19/13 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHappyMoron
For some reason I've never clicked with the berceuse and the barcarolle. There's something about them that bores me.


The first few times I thought so too. I never had the patience to really listen, and I gave up on them.
But those are the kind of pieces that really grow on you over time, just wait. Today I can listen to them for hours and never get bored.


"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.
Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco] #2153903
09/19/13 03:41 PM
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Perhaps I'll give them another shot then... I wouldn't want to miss out frown
Admittedly there have been a few pieces like that, where at first they don't click but then later reveal themselves. I always found that with Medtner and Prokofiev.


All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
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