Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
What's Hot!!
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Piano Tuning
How to Tune Pianos
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Schumann's 4th Finger Enigma Resolved!
Who's Online Now
69 registered members (anotherscott, blackjack1777, ando, Agent88, bennevis, benoize, 18 invisible), 1,677 guests, and 1 spider.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#2153070 - 09/18/13 03:25 PM winding going above the nut  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
I've installed my £300 pounds worth of iron wound strings (26 of them). 4 broke. The winding, as Robert Wornum planned it, goes over the nut pin and just stops before the tuning pin. My maker did a fantastic job - everything just the right length. Should I have greased the nut pin? I can't help thinking the .8mm iron core was worked too hard pulling the wound section over the nut pin. Any ideas? Thanks.

(ad 800)
PTG Journal
PTG Journal
#2153101 - 09/18/13 03:51 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
"Nut pin" = agraffe?

confused



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#2153117 - 09/18/13 04:02 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
I suppose. It is just a pin though. The piano's a 170 year old upright.

#2153123 - 09/18/13 04:07 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
I think a photo of what you're talking about would be helpful. What I'm imagining is the winding going over the bearing bar and terminating between the bar and the tuning pin. Is that correct?



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2153126 - 09/18/13 04:09 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 419
Goof Offline
Full Member
Goof  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 419
UK
Take a look at some of the photographs placed on this "Pinao World" and you will see where the winding on whraped striings is supposed to end.
Also take a look on a site whoich sells piano parts and you could make a sketch or download the page so that you can learn the names of the various parts.

#2153128 - 09/18/13 04:13 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
Here's some I put on months ago - exactly how the maker wanted it:

[Linked Image]

#2153201 - 09/18/13 05:53 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
Okay, I see what you're talking about.

I've never seen an instance where windings extended this far.

Do not use any kind of petroleum-based or otherwise wet lubricant on it. It will ruin the piano.



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#2153204 - 09/18/13 05:55 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,413
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,413
Oakland
Just goes to show the makers were not always right.


Semipro Tech
#2153211 - 09/18/13 06:07 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
By that photo, it is very odd. There are some plain wire core, then some old strings that look like they were done wrong, then some new strings that look like they were done wrong.

I'd hate to have to try to tune it.



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#2153278 - 09/18/13 07:16 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,604
Dave B Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Dave B  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,604
Philadelphia area
I've never seen windings above the agraffes. How old is the piano? Are the old strings in the photo originals?


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#2153301 - 09/18/13 07:55 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: BDB]  
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member
David Jenson  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,539
Maine
Originally Posted by BDB
Just goes to show the makers were not always right.
And how! I'm glad that piano is across the "Pond" and I won't be called to tune it.


David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----
#2153313 - 09/18/13 08:21 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,583
Bob Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Bob  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,583
Florida
I can't imagine it was planned that way. The windings should stop before the pins. Only the core wire should contact the pin, and then go around the tuning pin. There are two ways to make this piano tuneable -

1. Replace the strings with ones of proper size (send the maker a paper template showing bearing points and hitch pin locations)

2. Remove each string from the tuning pin and unwind enough outer coil so it ends 1/2" below the pin. Then re-install the string.

Are these the original pins? Are they tight?

You will continue to break strings or the outer coil will separate at the pin and buzz unless this piano is strung correctly.

#2153319 - 09/18/13 08:34 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Silverwood Pianos  Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,263
Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
I suppose. It is just a pin though. The piano's a 170 year old upright.


1852 Broadwood windings


Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
#2153332 - 09/18/13 08:59 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Silverwood Pianos]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted by Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
I suppose. It is just a pin though. The piano's a 170 year old upright.


1852 Broadwood windings


Wow. That seems crazy to me. How do those strings even move?



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#2153338 - 09/18/13 09:09 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,413
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,413
Oakland
Poorly!

This is something that is missing from all of those early temperament discussions. The instruments in those days did not tune as well as modern ones.


Semipro Tech
#2153351 - 09/18/13 10:10 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: BDB]  
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member
OperaTenor  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,556
Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted by BDB
Poorly!

This is something that is missing from all of those early temperament discussions. The instruments in those days did not tune as well as modern ones.


Oh yeah!

laugh



Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind
#2153434 - 09/19/13 01:05 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,218
ando Online content
5000 Post Club Member
ando  Online Content
5000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,218
Melbourne, Australia
Sounds like an expensive proposition to purchase another full set of strings. Wouldn't it be worth a try to take them off and wind off some of the winding to the appropriate length? He might break a few more in the process, but once the surviving strings are all on, he can special order the ones that are missing. Worth a go?

#2153473 - 09/19/13 03:30 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I believe the friction was lower intially with the wood rubbed with graphite and not marred (and the pin as well.

burnishing and graphiting (hard pencil) may help a little, , may be inserting a small strip of "parchemin" (French) at the moment the string is pulled, to protect it, then pull it out, if well positionned may be it will pull out easily enough, if not, lower a little the tension.

the becket are not cut after installation, but the lenght evaluated and the becket installed flush in the pin. Others may have told you that yet.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2153842 - 09/19/13 02:42 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Olek]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
Thanks for the comments folks. I'll certainly do the graphite and maybe the parchment. The problem may be Malcolm Rose B is not up to the job. In this 1834 review he does mention new Improved Steel:

[Linked Image]

#2153947 - 09/19/13 05:35 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France


interesting document, thanks for posting it .

I cannot really help there but yes piano makers begin to use steel -that year (1837-38, I heard)

you need to measure the speaking lengths to check if a steel can be used. together with the tension of the basses, that may be very low.

Last edited by Olek; 09/19/13 05:36 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2155663 - 09/22/13 05:39 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 419
Goof Offline
Full Member
Goof  Offline
Full Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 419
UK
Do yourself a favour: go to the Fincock piano museum in Kent where you can see many old, and some very old, pianos. I feel certain there will not be one where the winding of a string goes over the capo bar.
Whilst there ask the way to the nearby "farm" where a Mr Richard Dain, a retired mechanical engineer, puts together pianos which have sound boards made of carbon fiber.
Also go to U-tube and look for an item named " A Pianos Pin by Ronan O'Hora". He is playing Mozart's Sonata K570 II Adagio. The videos shows pins throughout the ages AND at the end your type of pins (old) in situ with the CORRECT arrangement !!!!
I do hope you get it right as I'd like to hear how the instrument sounds.

Last edited by Goof; 09/23/13 06:39 AM.
#2155935 - 09/23/13 02:33 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Goof]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
I know one of the major restorers in this country - he's said it's unusual not to have the winding going round the pin but that is what Mr Wornum wanted.

The sounding length of the bottom iron wound G# (g#2 according to this website http://www.claviersbaroques.com/CBExpertHelmholtzNotation.htm ) is 70cm. The top iron wound one, g# (g#3), is 61.5cm. They are very high for wound strings - all cores are .8mm. That's why I initial thought to plain string at least the top group (I notice on Pleyel's Pianino he plain strings down to B (b2).

#2155941 - 09/23/13 02:45 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,413
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 25,413
Oakland
It may or may not be what Wornum wanted, but it seems to be what he got. Even now, piano makers make mistakes.


Semipro Tech
#2155942 - 09/23/13 02:50 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: BDB]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
Well how about this - every string from bottom to top (F1 (FF) to F7 (f'''')) has the same length - 92.5 cms.

#2155977 - 09/23/13 05:54 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,524
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
rXd  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,524
I remember an Érard grand with covered wire over the bridge (oversize bridge pins) and through the oversize agraffe with oversize holes I didn't check the interior configuration of the agraffe holes. Probably quite a broad curve.
I didn't know it's age and the covered strings were all black with oxidisation so I didn't know what metal they were covered with.
I only saw it briefly.

It was being tuned regularly and slightly above 440. . The tuner expressed no problems with it, this was in the days when we were tuning all kinds of weird and wonderful old pianos that had been tuned on contract for many generations.
This was in the 1960's and it was all original then with no broken strings. It was just the core wire on the tuning pins. Must have been well over 100 years old then.

I have access to an old Broadwood square, 1804, I think. I know the bass strings are spiral wound with a 1/4" or so step to the spiral. I am sure the strings are wound as they go over the bridges but I will check.

I remember something about continuing the winding past the termination points reduced inharmonicity, perhaps our experts could address this matter.

Last edited by rxd; 09/23/13 05:57 AM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2155988 - 09/23/13 06:24 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Olek Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Olek  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
France
I have seen that winding "often" on instruments of a certain era - all wooden frames
Also on some square pianos (European ones)

I am not sure the winding go on the bridge too, more probably no.

Last edited by Olek; 09/23/13 07:09 AM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
#2156018 - 09/23/13 08:23 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
I hadn't thought it unusual that the winding goes over the bridge:

[Linked Image]

but quite right, on my Pleyel it doesn't.

#2156187 - 09/23/13 01:28 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,524
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member
rXd  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,524
This picture from another thread that has covered strings going over the bridge. It's quite common in ancient pianos. I'm still wondering how successful continuous winding like this is in reducing inharmonicity. Any experts on covered string inharmonicity?

[Linked Image]

Last edited by rxd; 09/23/13 01:36 PM.

Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


#2156374 - 09/23/13 06:58 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]  
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,604
Dave B Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Dave B  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,604
Philadelphia area
Are the strings original?


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
#2156417 - 09/23/13 08:18 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Dave B]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
chopin_r_us Offline
2000 Post Club Member
chopin_r_us  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,175
London
Originally Posted by Dave B
Are the strings original?
On mine they are. I'm having to replace from G#2 to G#3 as they are iron wound and sound tubby from rust.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World)
our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, Digital Piano Dolly, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping* on Jansen Artist Piano Benches, Cocoweb Piano Lamps, Hidrau Hydraulic Piano Benches
(*free shipping within contiguous U.S. only)
(ad)
Pearl River & Ritmuller
Ritmuller Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq 6 Out now
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


New Topics - Multiple Forums
Climate in London
by David-G. 10/19/17 07:30 PM
Realtek ASIO. Anyone used it?
by Marcos Daniel. 10/19/17 04:35 PM
Damper lift adjustment
by Beemer. 10/19/17 03:56 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics182,381
Posts2,665,729
Members88,990
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Click Here to
Explore The Rest of Piano World!!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0