Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum How do you negotiate on a long-distance used grand piano?

HI there-

First off let me say that I'm not good at negotiating these things, because I really have no experience. I've read through the posts on negotiating with the dealer - all very good advice, like using the power of "no", perhaps mentioning to the dealer that "ABC dealer down the street has this same piano for X dollars" if they quote you a price that seems way too high, using the old "I'll have to think about it", and such.

But what do you do when the brand you're looking for is obscure, like a used Ibach grand, so there really is no competition?

AND, you basically have to travel across the U.S. if you want to try out the piano, because again, no one else really has any. Seems like the dealer definitely has the advantage and therefore might not offer as good of a deal as one would hope...

I have so far only sent an email to the dealer asking the exact year of the piano & model. So far I haven't even asked what his asking price is. However, if I'm going to possibly fly out there to take a look, I would like to know that it's at least in my price range first. However, I also don't want to "lock" myself into a price, when I haven't even seen it yet, if that makes sense.

Any suggestions on how to do this, and then to later negotiate on it successfully?

Thanks!

I would imagine that piano dealers have dealt with all kinds of people; serious prospective customers and "tire kickers and well wishers", as we say here in the South. (I think I've probably been at both ends of the spectrum there too ).

Anyway, why don't you contact the dealer and tell them exactly what you just told us (except the part about the piano being so scarce and rare)... tell them you'd like to have a general idea of a price range before you commit to spending money on transportation...

By-the-way, some dealers will offer to pick you up at the air port and take you back when you are ready to leave.

Good luck and keep us informed!

Rick

This is a great question! with all the online sites enticing people to buy pianos
even from way out of state customers..short of jumping on the next flight to test
pianos, are there really any other options? after all its not a guitar which can be
FedEx and returned if your unhappy with it, what's a budding pianist to do?
inquiring minds want to know..

About the price ...

A good phrase is "What are you asking for the piano?"

"Asking" leaves the door open with the understanding future bargaining. It is best to not start with "What's your bottom line?"

Is the seller willing to create a video of the piano similar to what Rick Jones presents on his site? It would at least be a starting point. Also, it would be good to get still photos of the interior of the piano.

Good luck and keep us posted.

You could call the dealer and ask about its history. Where did it come from? Can you speak to the previous owner/tuner? Make it clear you are seriously interested in the piano since you played a similar one the other day. That was priced at $x and it needed $y spending on it, more than you wanted to spend or thought it was worth. Now his price of $z is more than my budget and more than $x + $y, will we be able to reach a deal if I come over and like the piano. This all depends on the numbers, of course, but it will give you an idea of whether a deal is possible at a price you are prepared to pay.

Well, the price of a piano is nothing but the balance of supply and demand. In your case, the supply is obviously limited, since you cannot find another piano you want. However, how many people are actually looking for an Ibach? So the balance is not as tilted as you think.

Also it does not make sense talking about the price without checking out the piano first. Traveling expense is part of the cost to conduct business online.

Once you know the condition of the piano and still want to buy it, then you can discuss the price. I hate to haggle, so what I trying to do is to make the process as simple as possible. First ask the seller his asking price, then counter him/her with your final offer. If the seller does not take your price, just walk away. Look into the mirror and find your take-it-or-walk-away offer, you will save both of you lots of time and emotion.

If you love that Ibach so much that you simply cannot walk away, then your take-it-or-walk-away offer is seller's asking price.

Thank you everyone for your good advice :-) I appreciate it-
I will call & get more info on the piano, & at least find out what they are asking for it to make sure it'd be worth making the trip out there

Hi phrygian,

From a pure negotiation perspective, having the other party state their "asking price" is usually not a good move. That's because the dealer establishes what's called an "anchor price" -- subsequent offers have to "move down" from this anchor price, rather than converging to the piano's fair price.

Before entering negotiations for a particular piano, you need to do some independent research (homework) on the value of Ibach grands in the marketplace in general. E.g., for an Ibach from X period in Y condition, it should be valued between $A and $B. You need several permutations of X and Y and their associated prices. You should also take account the cost of rebuilding pianos from that era.

You can establish these prices by talking to Ibach owners, dealers in general, qualified technicians who restore/rebuild older pianos, and others who are familiar with the piano marketplace. Although Ibach is not a common brand, you can compare it to similar brands from that period for additional data points.

Having all this information, you can then have the particular piano in question inspected, and determine what that piano is actually worth. Only then will you be able to enter a solid negotiations with the dealer, and not base value decisions solely based on the dealer's initial asking price.

I don't honestly see how asking for the seller's price can be avoided. When discussing price, either the buyer or seller needs to open with a number or there will never be an agreement. From a buyer's perspective, you ideally want to get the seller to give an opening price. The other option would be to make an offer of what you are willing to pay, or to reveal a 'budget', which may end up being higher than what the seller expects to receive.

A seller unreasonably anchored to a high opening price is a poor negotiator, and unlikely to sell their piano. Movement downwards is necessary to converge on an agreed price. But simply asking for an opening price does not imply any agreement that the price is reasonable, nor does it encourage anchoring.

I totally agree that research is required in order to get the best idea of what a genuinely reasonable price would be. There must be some similar pianos of the same brand somewhere else that you could compare prices? Bearing in mind reasonable adjustments for differences in age, size, local market conditions.

Also, I would check on the reputation of the dealership. Post their name here and solicit comments from those who know the dealership.

Check with the dealer's local BBB and with comments on their Facebook and LinkedIn pages.

If it is a highly-reputable dealership you should feel comfortable dealing with them. If they have a poor reputation...keep shopping, Ibach or not!

Hi pogmoger,

There have been numerous studies done in negotiations which shows this strong "anchor point" effect.

Of course each party will have to specify an opening price at some point. But whoever sets the opening price FIRST usually has an advantage of setting the anchor point.

This is why dealers like to work from a high MSRP. It has to do with the psychology of negotiations. First offer price anchoring advantages the dealer even more when the buyer is not fully informed on the real value/price of the item. All the buyer can do is to base decisions on "percent discount" believed to be good (but often is not).

Doing your homework first makes you an informed buyer. You'll be able to find good deals, and more importantly, walk away from bad ones.

Here's from a study from Harvard Business School: ("the dramatic effects of anchors")

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/archive/4302.html

Here's an article from Stanford's Graduate School of Business: ("make the first move because of anchoring")

http://www.gsb.stanford.edu/news/headlines/2007nealefirstmove.html

HI Peekay- good points. Regarding inspection- are you then suggesting having a tech check it out even before I go and try it- should I decide to eventually make that trip- in order to find out any technical info about that particular piano first? (I'm in California, the piano is in New Jersey) Or do you mean do the inspection after I have made the trip to play it? What would you suggest here?

thanks

Thanks Steve-
the piano is here:
http://www.primepiano.com/invingrnd/ibach.html

Has anyone done business with Prime PIano in New Jersey? Looks like they restore, rebuild, repair, etc. Although there doesn't appear to be any of that done to this particular piano, according to the description they have for it.

PS- In the ad, they mention the piano is 20 years old- the guy responded in the email that it is a 1986, which makes it 27 years old(!)

Hi phrygian,

Everyone's different, but my take is, have it inspected when you're serious about purchasing this particular piano -- which invariably means after playing it first, but before final negotiations take place.

I.e., after you've past the "kicking the tires" stage, have a some idea of the piano's fair value (barring surprises), and ready to go forward with serious negotiations depending on the inspection results.

What are your "alternatives" if the Ibach does not meet expectations?

I ask because should you travel from California to NJ, there's a lot of hope that this piano is "the one", and once there it would be difficult for anyone to come back "empty handed". Maybe after spending some time playing this Ibach, you'll like the piano but not love it. Would you be able to walk away?

For me, that would be the most difficult part. I have a tendency to say "yup that's good enough" and maybe have a some buyer's remorse later. If you're like me, you might want to try out a few other pianos back home and during your visit to NJ/NY just to keep a sense of balance.

Interesting, Peekay. I could give you a whole load of studies/textbooks about Negotiations that say the exact opposite.

I'm shopping for a piano at the moment, and I know that I'm not going into a dealer's showroom to reveal my budget or make an offer on a piano before he tells me his price. The result of this is that I've TWICE been quoted prices for instruments at a lower opening price that I expected the dealer to enter with (based on previous research.) I would have been at a severe disadvantage if I had made an opening offer higher than the dealer's expectations. I might say something like 'I like the look, sound and touch of that Bluthner rebuild over there. I'll give you $25000'. If the dealer was only looking for $20000, then I'm an idiot.

I don't consider 'anchoring' to be all that relevant, because it suggests that whoever shouts out the first number in a negotiation is always going to be the winner. If only it were that easy! If a seller's opening number is ridiculously high, an informed buyer will say 'no thanks' and walk away. Or they will make a counter offer and movement towards a possible agreement will ensue. But no-one should ever feel intimidated or challenged by an opening price in a negotiation. A business can only set fixed, anchored prices if they have a monopoly.

I don't want to get into a long debate about this. Anyone reading can decide which strategy makes most sense to them and follow whichever advice they prefer.

Interesting post, Pogmoger. I guess this has always been my approach in the past too. Perhaps it also depends on what kind of person the dealer/seller is- sometimes I can tell if they are a straight shooter or if they are the haggling type when they start talking.

Hi Peekay-
Good points- well, I did make a trip down to Southern California a few weeks ago to try a different Ibach- though it wasn't as far as going across the country- but it did sort of "callous" me for travel. My hope was that that one was "the one" - I had a tech check it out and unfortunately it needed way too much work, so most likely I'm going to pass on that one. So I guess I've sort of accepted that if I want to play an Ibach 7ft grand- there may be travel involved- and the one I go to play may or may not be the one. Unfortunately it's not as easy as driving over to the local piano dealer- haha. But having said that, I probably won't really travel unless I have enough info beforehand about the piano.

Thanks Rick!

totally- I'm right there with you Bob- are you shopping for a piano as well?

Thanks Marty. Yea, I would definitely like some video / audio footage- even though it's not the same thing as playing it- that really helps me to hear what it's about