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Bonjour Isaac,

I wondered when you would join the conversation. It is to you, that I owe my thanks for helping me learn how to set the pins, and achieve beautiful unisons. It has taken me nearly a year of practicing on my piano to do that, and I have a long way yet to go.

Now that I can achieve a stable tuning, and, having learned how to listen to the partials, especially in the high treble ( your youtube video on tuning the high treble really helped me- merci beaucoup), I felt confident to tune a WT. I chose Young because of its symmetry. I did not say that Debussy had his piano tuned in Young, only that I enjoy the sound of Debussy, when played in Young.

For example, in Young, Bb Major is a calm key. Book 1, prelude 1, Danseuses de Delphes is so calm and serene. Prelude 8, La fille aux cheveux de lin, in Gb Major is so shimmering with its 21 cent wide M3. My musician friends, when hearing these two pieces, played slowly so they can hear the sonority of the piano in those keys, are astounded. They thought that the wide thirds would be jarring, and they are, in the right, or wrong, context. But, used by Debussy, they are wonderful.

I agree with you about ET being portable, but keep in mind that in the 18th and 19th centuries, UTs were portable, within in a much smaller radius, as well. I have heard gorgeous ET tunings that really bring out the synergetic potential of the instrument. A well tuned WT does that as well, and provides the performer and the listener with a hint of what the composer heard.

Regards.

"~Equal Temperament.~--Equal temperament is one in which the twelve fixed tones of the chromatic scale are equidistant. Any chord will be as harmonious in one key as in another.

"...it is only within the last half century that the system of equal temperament has been universally adopted..."

J Cree Fischer was a piano technician, teacher and author. He wrote the above in 1907. Accordingly, "within the last half century" would place the universal adoption of ET among piano tuners from 1857-1907.

It is called, "Equal Temperament," not "Perfect Temperament."

Thank you, Ed, for pointing us to Enid Katahn's recordings, and yes, thank you Bosendorff for the links, especially David Pinnegar's harpsichord.

Mwm,

Could I persuade you to record something really simple in several keys in Young's temperament?

The point of the exercise is, as suggested, to bring out the differences rather than elicit preferences.

I don't know what would work best but what I have in mind is a Grade 1 student discovering key colors.

David Pinnegar was part way there in Bosendorff's Link 1 but it needs to be on a modern piano and maybe a basic sequence repeating round the circle of fifths.

With nevertheless a little changeduring the cycle of 5 ths due to the acceleration of beats.SO an harmonic progression is yet creating some effect. It is not just as it all tonalities would sound the same.

I have two copies, for some reason, of Fischer's book on tuning. His method of tuning (he actually gives three methods) is based on narrow fifths tuning and pure octaves throughout the compass of the piano. He knows nothing of inharmonicity, though he speaks of the need to carefully tune the high treble, as people have a tendency to tune them too flat. While it is possible to tune an reasonable ET using his method, which requires many "going back and correcting intervals", his method will produce a very odd sounding piano if, as he implies, one tunes only 2:1 octaves. I doubt seriously that he tuned what he preached.

Yes, it is my intention to do so using simple chord progressions, arpeggios, and snippets of music that highlight the tension in the far keys and the calmness of the close keys, all relative to C of course.

Thank you, I feel so much better now that an Authority on the Matter has told me that not only am I a coward, but I've lost my right mind. (Will just have to use the left one, then.)

Peace to you, too.

I have finally realized, after many years of misapprehension, that ET stands for "Establishment Tuning".

- I love it!

Thanks. A momentary reprieve from my apparent senility. I must copy it to the analogous thread.

While UT stands for "untuned."

I prefer to think of it as Unexcelled Tuning.

We should start a thread - What do UT, WT, ET stand for?

Unbelievable Tuning

Worst Tuning (ever!) the teenagers judgement of things

Everyman's Tuning

to name a few.

I only just opened this thread, now to see this one is chock full of ignorant insults, too.

Go out and earn an honest living taking care of other people's pianos, then get back to us on your pet theory, Mwm.

I know when I'm not wanted. Time to sign out and close this thread.

Good morning, Mwm:

Long ago, my copy of JCF went into the abyss of books loaned never to be seen again. Fortunately, the entire text is available free in PDF.

Most of us read piano technology texts written 100+/- years ago with certain reservations. JCF is no exception. However, the point in citing him has more to do with history. Here his understanding may not be so easily challenged.

1. At the very least, JCF both understood and taught the rudiments of Equal Temperament. Whether or not he practiced it successfully in business is unknown. Will leave speculation on this point to the ghost of H. L. Mencken. I do know that some modern piano techs have used modified forms of JCF quite successfully.

2. JCF writes from a vantage that we do not enjoy: The world of piano tuners leading up to ca.1907, the year his second edition was published at Philadelphia. From a rather comprehensive perspective, he places a universal acceptation of Equal Temperament among piano tuners from 1857 to 1907. Moreover, he expresses surprise that it had taken that long - implying an even earlier period wherein the theory was in its formative stage.

The extent of his "piano universe" is, of course, arguable.

ah, the debate. If our design had been such that we had 10 fingers per hand, we would, without a doubt, be using 19-ET.

Untuned?
It depends on what a person calls "in tune". Some prefer that the interval size, and step size, be determined by a mathematical equality. This value is dependent on mechanical parameters, (the number of keys a human can realistically manipulate), and the attraction we have for the octave. Thus, the harmonic quality of the instrument is fixed by the number of digits we possess, not by what happens between our eardrum and inner brain.

The opposing argument is that the sensual qualities of varying sizes of interval have musical values, and used to bolster whatever musical attempt is being made to hit an emotional target, add a significant psycho-emotive aspect to music's attraction. There is no math that is applicable to this approach, it being based on sensual judgements rather than intellectual.

There is little argument that tempering is detuning, if we are to take purity as the clinical definition of "in tune". So, ET and WT's are both, clinically, out of tune, hence there is no reason for one or the other to be hurling impugnment.

However, if we define "out of tune" as the condition in which a tuning calls attention to itself, we can look at the ET/WT debate with the subjective character of the proponents illuminating their positions. As a working tuner, I think there are things that call attention to themselves all the time, but musicians and music lovers don't listen like tuners.

Bach, at one time, sounded fine to me on an ET piano. Then I heard his music on a piano tuned in a WT and the added complexity left the ET versions sounding sterile and boring to me. My attraction for ET has not returned.
Same goes for most other music prior to Chopin, for me. The constant haze of 13.7 cent thirds sounds like someone left the vibrato on, for everything, everywhere. The constant, unrelenting stimulation of this tuning makes everything in it sound edgy, yet, others don't hear it, at all.

For the listener who isn't sensitive to harmonic values, the sameness is the only thing that sounds in tune. When all thirds are the same width, the brain stops registering dissonance or consonance, even though we are exquisitely equipped to discern these qualities. Without an appreciation for the coherent, temperament defined, build-up and resolution of musical tension in modulation, there can be no value given to inequality, so of course, a tuning that has none suffers no loss for these ears. It is just as impossible for them to hear the composer using the textural qualities of a WT to create greater emotional impact as it is for some people to discern the hidden image in the computer-generated 'MAGIC EYE" pictures. They will swear there is NO picture in there.

When such a desensitivity occurs, there will be a special status bestowed on ET as an ideal, the one "in tune" tuning. Never mind that it is less complex, less emotionally affective,(dissonance/consonace is proven to actively alter emotions), and offers no explanation why the composers chose the keys that they did, (this is key to understanding the effects of WT). Its attraction has less to do with music and more to do with comfort. I will mention that the passage that got more positive review than any other on our "Beethoven in the Temperaments"CD was the Pathetique., with its 21 cent thirds in the harmony. That surprised even me, as I had thought that going to the full syntonic extreme would be too radical for many. go figure...
Regards,

Hi Ed,

In these last couple of rancorous threads, I don't think anyone has advocated ET as the only "in-tune" tuning (unless I missed a post somewhere); it is merely being held up as the universally-accepted standard, and what most professionals use to tune in the course of their everyday work. That is not to say that UT's are bad and should never be used. The vitriol came up when, after being asked to support his assertion that Young 1799 is absolute best tuning in the universe, Mwm responded by insulting all of the professionals in the room.

I give my customers what they ask for, be it ET or a UT.

You are free to go and mope, if that's what floats your boat. FYI, it's not you that's not wanted, it's your insults.

Untrue - The twelve tone scale, in western musical development, preceded any keyboard instruments. I has nothing to do with the number of fingers available to a human creature.