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Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 #2149334
09/13/13 10:16 AM
09/13/13 10:16 AM
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Memarzipan Offline OP
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Dead all,

Thank you first of all for such a great and detailed forum - I am new, and already your comments have helped me to narrow my search for the ultimate DP, exploring the Yamaha NU1, Roland LX-15 and eventually Kawai CS/CA series.

I have decided that with a budget of about £4K, the mellow tones and grand action of the Kawai CA95 are exactly what I'm after. But here is my dilemma! The CA95 has a rounded, warm and mellow sound which I love... but doesn't look so great. The CS10 is supposedly essentially a CA95 in the body of a CS and on paper ticks all of my boxes. But when I compared the two, the CS10 definitely has a brighter sound. And others in the shop agreed, so I don't think it is just my ears! In some ways the CS10 is superior because of the larger soundboard and extra speakers, however, I really do prefer richness and warmth of the CA95. Even the 'mellow' settings on CS10 just don't seem to compare... I know the CA95 has won lots of awards, and it is early days for the CS10...

Has anyone else found such a difference in sound? Any tips on getting a closer match between the two? I really don't know which way to go on this one, so if you have tried the CS10/7/CA95 I would love to hear your thoughts!

Many thanks in advance smile






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Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2149529
09/13/13 02:55 PM
09/13/13 02:55 PM
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I think you may very well be the first one on the forum here having hands-on experience with the CS10. Therefore it's hard to give some good feedback. The only thing I can advice you is to compare the two piano under the exact same conditions. That is :

- do a factory reset on both of them , so they are in default mode. Make sure both have latest firmware too, I there are any updates.

- put the volume equally loud very carefully (us a demo, not your own playing)

- position the Piano's (in turns) at the exact same spot in the shop. When the placement of an instrument is different the sound can have quite another character / odd frequencies due to room acoustics. Don't underestimate that fact.

Only when the conditions are the same : same default preset, same demo song, same perceived volume and same spot in the room and placement of other objects in the room; then you can make a proper judgement.

At last, also take into consideration where you'll put the DP. If you have a room with lots of carpet, curtains etc , it may be quite dampened and dry. A brighter piano can be just what you need in that case. I works the other way around too (clear brick walls, hard wooden or stone floor, high ceiling etc).

Hope this helps. Cheers.

Last edited by JFP; 09/13/13 02:56 PM.
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2150205
09/14/13 06:49 PM
09/14/13 06:49 PM
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Wait, I also thought that the CS10 and CA95 are virtually the same with the only difference is the cabinet. Are you sure that the soundboard is indeed larger on the CS10 and it has more speakers compared to CA95?

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2150249
09/14/13 08:18 PM
09/14/13 08:18 PM
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I had the same dilemma today with the CA65 And the CS7. The second one sounded much brighter, but much closer to a real coustic piano.
I haven't reset to default settings...how can I do it tomorrow when I go back to the store?

Last edited by Emiliano; 09/14/13 08:20 PM.
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Delphian2001] #2150253
09/14/13 08:35 PM
09/14/13 08:35 PM
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From Kawai's website:

CS10:
Speakers - 7 cm x 4 + 1.4 cm x 2 + 132 cm x 53 cm Soundboard Speaker
Output Power - 45 W x 2 + 45 W transducer
Dimensions - 60" (W) x 21 1/3" (D) x 41 1/3"(H)
Weight - 225 lbs.

CA95:
Speaker - 7 cm x 4 (Top Speakers) + 1.4 cm x 2 (Dome Speakers) + Soundboard Speaker System
output Power - 45 Watts x 2 + 45 Watt Transducer
Dimensions - 58" (W) x 19" (D) x 37" (H)
Weight - 192 lbs.

The dimension of the CA95 soundboard was not specified. However, given that they have identical output power, it is very likely that they are the same.

The dimension and the material/weight of the cabinet does affects the sound produced by the DP. So at the end of the day, you'll have to decide whether to go for the look or the sound.



CA95, Sennheiser HD598
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2150454
09/15/13 08:59 AM
09/15/13 08:59 AM
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It seems like the specs between the CA95 and CS10 are identical, so the perceived difference in sound should be a result of the different dimensions and form-factor. I found the CA95 to be on the bright side, so if indeed the CS10 sounds brighter I'd assume it has to do with the fact that the mid-range speakers are closer (in terms of height) to the players ears; therefore, you get a more pronounced mid and upper range due to the physical proximity of the speakers. The mid-range speakers seem a tad small to me; more like over-rated tweeters, in a sense. I'd probably go with the CA95, and wait for the next generation CS. Who knows; by then KAWAI might ditch speakers all together, and go for a soundboard-only approach.

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2150713
09/15/13 06:55 PM
09/15/13 06:55 PM
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Good morning,

I can confirm that the CA95 and CS10 soundboard speaker system are identical. This is the second generation of Kawai soundboard speaker, and offers an improved frequency range compared to that of the CA93/CS9.

Difference in sound are likely due to the different form factor and construction of the two models.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2151521
09/16/13 06:22 PM
09/16/13 06:22 PM
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Memarzipan Offline OP
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Thank you all so much for your comments, can't tell you how helpful this is! And thank you for correcting me re. soundboard and speakers, seems I was misinformed on that front. I think you hit the nail on the head Emiliano - I agree that the CS is a closer sound to a real acoustic albeit much brighter. I visited the store again and after some careful experimentation with the settings you can achieve a nice mellow yet authentic sound. JFP, your comments re. room ambiance also helped - I tested in a showroom with wooden floors, so perhaps the CS10 will suit those with carpets etc like me. The CA95 really does have a beautiful tone and is in some ways more 'forgiving' compared to the realism of the CS10 - it is a very difficult choice. If I go for the CS10 I will do a proper review when it is in situ, but I think if you're after the closest to an acoustic in both sound, clarity and response then the CS seems like a pretty safe bet... Or maybe it's just the shiny finish that is swaying me! smile

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2151768
09/17/13 01:20 AM
09/17/13 01:20 AM
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Welcome to our world, Memarzipan. laugh


-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2151884
09/17/13 05:13 AM
09/17/13 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Memarzipan
Or maybe it's just the shiny finish that is swaying me! smile


Don't underestimate the effect a beautiful design can have on your overall enjoyment of the piano. I always enjoyed sitting behind a beautiful polished grand piano , even without touching a key. Unless you alway play with your eyes closed the nice cabinet will certainly help in obtaining your goal ; enjoy playing a fine instrument.

Question; when you went back I understand that you verified your first impression, which is that the CS sounded (much ) brighter than the CA ? Lucky enough it's easier to dampen the sound somewhat by playing with EQ and virtual technician settings , than brightening a sound that is too muffled by default.

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2302636
07/15/14 03:50 PM
07/15/14 03:50 PM
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Hello, folks.
I have tested today at the store the KAWAI CA65/95/CS7
Well, definitively, the cs7 has BETTER sound speakers than the ca65. Also, is sure more BRIGHT and I preffer its sounds far better than the CA65. Yes, I know that in the Kawai web the specifications are the same, except the cabinet, but I've talked with the store owner (that is an excellent pianist), and he says me that he thoughts that the speakers are better in the CS7 than the CA 65. There is a BIG difference, and, effectly, is not a aesthetyc matter only. Also, the CS7 sounds much more accoustic, like a Yamaha U1 upright, and the volume is in fact much more powerfull. In top of volume settings, the CS7 sounds incredibly LOUD, much more than the CA65, and also than the CA95 I have tested. All the DP were on the same place of the store (no carpets, no wallpaper), and you can feel the difference of sounds. Finally, I purchased today the CA95 by the only factor that the sound with the soundboard is more "presential" and "involving", more like a mellow gran piano and you can feel well the vibration on the keys, like an accoustic. I have done some videos, but can't upload at the moment, because I write this on my tablet and have no computer, but also with the mobile device poor quality you can listen that difference. For this reason, I decided to buy the CA95, because I will learn with earphones 80% (neighbours) and 20% I need that "sensation" of vibration and presence and "involving sound" that is for me some different and also a little better than the bright (and beautiful)CS7.
If you need to ask something, I can answer you. Sorry for my english mistakes, I have a poor english.
Huggies,
Tosko

Last edited by tosko; 07/15/14 03:55 PM.
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Peterer] #2302665
07/15/14 04:42 PM
07/15/14 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tosko
Hello, folks.
I have tested today at the store the KAWAI CA65/95/CS7
Well, definitively, the cs7 has BETTER sound speakers than the ca65. Also, is sure more BRIGHT and I preffer its sounds far better than the CA65. Yes, I know that in the Kawai web the specifications are the same, except the cabinet, but I've talked with the store owner (that is an excellent pianist), and he says me that he thoughts that the speakers are better in the CS7 than the CA 65. There is a BIG difference, and, effectly, is not a aesthetyc matter only. Also, the CS7 sounds much more accoustic, like a Yamaha U1 upright, and the volume is in fact much more powerfull. In top of volume settings, the CS7 sounds incredibly LOUD, much more than the CA65, and also than the CA95 I have tested. All the DP were on the same place of the store (no carpets, no wallpaper), and you can feel the difference of sounds. Finally, I purchased today the CA95 by the only factor that the sound with the soundboard is more "presential" and "involving", more like a mellow gran piano and you can feel well the vibration on the keys, like an accoustic. I have done some videos, but can't upload at the moment, because I write this on my tablet and have no computer, but also with the mobile device poor quality you can listen that difference. For this reason, I decided to buy the CA95, because I will learn with earphones 80% (neighbours) and 20% I need that "sensation" of vibration and presence and "involving sound" that is for me some different and also a little better than the bright (and beautiful)CS7.
If you need to ask something, I can answer you. Sorry for my english mistakes, I have a poor english.
Huggies,
Tosko


Your English is great.

Do not agonize. The market for electronic keyboards is changing exponentially. You ears will accommodate (regrettably, but none of us is immune) to the less-than-perfect sound/response of the keyboard.

The MOST important part of the equation, if you are substituting for a "real" piano, is the ACTION.

Play a REAL piano every now and then, and use the electronic to refine your chops without disturbing the neighbours (assuming that's an issue)!!!

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2302717
07/15/14 06:09 PM
07/15/14 06:09 PM
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Memarzipan, I had the same dilemma last year when I was living in Belgium and had to pick btw CA65 or CS7. I had posted a thread last fall about the same exact issue.....I ended up getting the CS7, but then gave it back when I moved out of the country....let me know if you can find it, otherwise I'll get the link of the thread for you.....
I hope it helps

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2302869
07/16/14 03:31 AM
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Emiliano and others: I have to wait about one week to the delivery of my CA95. If any one can explain me if has tested the CS10 between the CA95, I'm in time to change my decission and asume the 550 euro of difference between CS10/CA95. I will own the piano for many years and don't do a bad decission. Its only on sound quality, not the forniture or the beauty (yes, I asume that CS10 is more beauty, but for me it doesn't matter. Someone has sayed that perhaps CS10 have "better processor"??
Witch sound do you prefeer? CS10 or CA95? They had for you that same differences than the CS7 and CA65? The seller tells me that he thinks there is a little change in factory, like better processor and better speakers (Kawai not always put this little changes on its web for commercial reasons).
I need to do the decission between CS10/CA95 this week!
Thanks a lot for your comments.

Last edited by tosko; 07/16/14 05:53 AM.
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Peterer] #2302873
07/16/14 03:53 AM
07/16/14 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by tosko
Someone has sayed that perhaps CS10 have "better processor"??


This is not correct.

The CA95 and CS10 use the same digital processor.
Any variations in speaker sound between the two models are likely the result of slightly different speaker position.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Kawai James] #2302896
07/16/14 05:59 AM
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James, than you for your answer, but I tested both models, CA65, CA95 and CS7. Not only the more bright (this is not questionable), but the CS7 sounds a lot LOUDER than the other two. My interest is, if you have played the CA95 and the CS10, you perceived different sound feels? Do you think CS10 has improved sound quality against the CA95? I will buy one of this two CA95 or CS10 and my question is only about the richness, realist and quality of the sound, not the furniture or beauty. I can't test the CS10, only they have a CA95.
Please, help me about this.

Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Memarzipan] #2302902
07/16/14 06:31 AM
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The first post in the thread, written last November, says:

The CA95 has a rounded, warm and mellow sound which I love... but doesn't look so great. The CS10 is supposedly essentially a CA95 in the body of a CS and on paper ticks all of my boxes. But when I compared the two, the CS10 definitely has a brighter sound. And others in the shop agreed, so I don't think it is just my ears! In some ways the CS10 is superior because of the larger soundboard and extra speakers, however, I really do prefer richness and warmth of the CA95. Even the 'mellow' settings on CS10 just don't seem to compare... I know the CA95 has won lots of awards, and it is early days for the CS10.

Since, as Kawai James says, the internal specs are identical, you might not find a much better guide than the above, without trying them extensively in person.


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Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: toddy] #2302908
07/16/14 06:52 AM
07/16/14 06:52 AM
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Now, just right this minute, the seller has phoned me! He says that certainly, the CS10 sounds more bright than the CA95, is a question of a personal try to personal taste and to preefer one or other. The store seller is a very good classical pianist and he prefeers the mellow and rounded sound of the CA95 against the much brighter CS10, AND: There is no CS10 in Kawai at this moment because he has talked with Kawai and they tells him that in Japan factory are resolving some issues with the first units of CS10 that have done some problems and they are doing some changes due to it. Then, the delivery time in here is about SIX MONTHS!! Japan-Kawai knows that problem and had solucionated, but they are manufacturing the first units with that first CS10 problems resolved (I don't know witch kind of issue it is, perhaps is a minor problem, I don't know). I can't wait 6 months and I feel also that the CA95 is more warm and rounded in sound. Then, my try will be the CA95. The store will send me to home next week.

Last edited by tosko; 07/16/14 06:56 AM.
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: Peterer] #2302932
07/16/14 08:04 AM
07/16/14 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by tosko
...if you have played the CA95 and the CS10, you perceived different sound feels?


I have played both the CA95 and the CS10, however there was a one year gap between both models as I played the CS10 during a photography session (it is not sold in Japan, so that instrument was shipped overseas shortly after the photography). Therefore, I'm afraid I cannot comment to what extent the CA95 and CS10 sound different.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Help needed fellow pianists! Kawai CA95 vs CS10 [Re: toddy] #2302933
07/16/14 08:08 AM
07/16/14 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by toddy
The first post in the thread, written last November, says:

...In some ways the CS10 is superior because of the larger soundboard and extra speakers...


As I confirmed earlier in the thread, the CA95 and CS10 share identical speaker systems. The CS10 sound board is not larger than the CA95.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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