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Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2144754
09/05/13 06:02 PM
09/05/13 06:02 PM
Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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We don't know "if." This is an international forum, and your narrow viewpoint misses a larger perspective.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2144757
09/05/13 06:12 PM
09/05/13 06:12 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,792
New York City
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
We don't know "if." This is an international forum, and your narrow viewpoint misses a larger perspective.
You need to learn about when if-then statements are true.

Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2144770
09/05/13 06:35 PM
09/05/13 06:35 PM
Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Ah yes. And the sun rises in the west.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2144778
09/05/13 06:46 PM
09/05/13 06:46 PM
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There are some places where Schimmel is extremely well known.

Like certain areas of Braunschweig. Not the whole city, mind you.


Amateur Pianist and raconteur.
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Furtwangler] #2144802
09/05/13 07:25 PM
09/05/13 07:25 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 4,755
Georgia, USA
terminaldegree Offline
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Originally Posted by Furtwangler

Like certain areas of Braunschweig. Not the whole city, mind you.


Best laugh I've had all day, Furtwangler.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2146570
09/08/13 06:56 PM
09/08/13 06:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 158
San Jose / Bay Area / Gilroy ...
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Scott McBain Offline
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San Jose / Bay Area / Gilroy ...
I disagree. All of the pianos you are looking at are of finest quality. Prices paid determine value. Some brands, like Kawai and Yamaha will hold their value longer than others and have better resale value than the Schimmel (brand recognition). Most certainly in my market.

If you look in the Larry Fine book- Kawai 9 grands SK and EX are higher in cost than both the Schimmel and the Yamaha (and Steinway) 9 footers, and we are talking about the best these companies produce. The C series Schimmel is 30% less than the K series Schimmel, ask yourself why?

Handmade is overused with many German companies. Some of the German factories I've visited have some of the most modern machinery, including Schimmel. Handmade means: more refinement and artistry within the technical part of the piano, pianos built to a quality standard versus pianos built to meet a price point.

Buy based on things that you like, sound, appearance, brand, quality, reputation of the dealer, etc.

To say one of these pianos is better than another is really just an opinion, argued back and forth by dealers that like what they sell and customers that like what they buy.

Last edited by Scott McBain; 09/08/13 06:58 PM.

A McBain-Carnes Piano Company - Since the 1920's
391 South Winchester Blvd San Jose, California
Purveyor for: Shigeru Kawai, Kawai, Walter Pianos
Preowned: Yamaha/Steinway (408)248-9200
www.sanjosepianostore.com
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2146579
09/08/13 07:08 PM
09/08/13 07:08 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Joined: May 2012
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Rochester MN
I think that it is excellent that someone has finally pointed out that a Kawai concert grand is more expensive than the 'overpriced' S&S-D !!!!!


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2146623
09/08/13 09:02 PM
09/08/13 09:02 PM
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Voltara Offline
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I think that it is excellent that someone has finally pointed out that a Kawai concert grand is more expensive than the 'overpriced' S&S-D !!!!!

Is it actually more expensive, though? S&S is a special case for Larry Fine's SMP, so it cannot be compared directly without first taking into account deeper discounts available for competing brands.

Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2146633
09/08/13 09:29 PM
09/08/13 09:29 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Minnesota Marty  Offline

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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Voltara,

How many 9' Kawais or Shigerus have you seen on the floor at a dealership? Do you think the same discount applied to a GX-3 or SK-3 would be the same discount percentage as on a custom ordered EX-EP or SK-EXL?

My point is that the Steinway pianos are not overpriced, as is the common verbiage repeated, ad nauseam, at PW.

There's an old adage - Ya get what ya pay for.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2146675
09/08/13 11:31 PM
09/08/13 11:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 135
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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Voltara,

How many 9' Kawais or Shigerus have you seen on the floor at a dealership? Do you think the same discount applied to a GX-3 or SK-3 would be the same discount percentage as on a custom ordered EX-EP or SK-EXL?

My point is that the Steinway pianos are not overpriced, as is the common verbiage repeated, ad nauseam, at PW.

There's an old adage - Ya get what ya pay for.

That's really interesting question. I've not had the opportunity to see a 9' Kawai or SK on a dealer's floor; even if I had, I doubt I would have gotten into a serious discussion about price anyway.

While I know what you mean about the attitude around here regarding Steinway, my observation is that more often the accusations of being overpriced are aimed at the Essex and Boston labels rather than at S&S itself.

If we have a willing buyer, I don't see why the dealer shouldn't be able to offer an attractive discount regardless of whether it's custom order or already on the floor. (Unless the buyer wants the option to refuse the piano, but then our comparison becomes contrived.)

Another thing to consider in our hypothetical buyer's favor is the recent devaluation of the Japanese Yen, to the tune of 20-25% from a year ago. Granted, a portion of the wholesale cost is markup from the US-based distributor and therefore wouldn't be influenced by currency fluctuations, but nonetheless it represents an opportunity for the buyer.

So yeah I would still be surprised if the actual street price of the EX-EP or SK-EXL was more than a S&S D. Besides, if the dealer insisted on sticking to his guns on the price, the buyer need only protest "but... Steinway D"

I could be wrong, though. I'll admit that sadly I don't have much experience buying top tier 9' pianos!

Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2146679
09/08/13 11:41 PM
09/08/13 11:41 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 79
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Caowner2013 Offline
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Originally Posted by messageliu
These pianos are all new, made in 2012.


Then Larry Fine's free on-line information will be exceedingly helpful. He makes it very clear and you would benefit greatly by reading it carefully. Thanks to that book and additional research, my family just snagged a wonderful new piano that would normally be completely beyond our reach.

Originally Posted by messageliu
Why only one person provide price info? Are some of you also dealers? LOL.


This is unnecessary and unproductive. In some cases, such comments turn people off and you will get no help.



Last edited by CalifPianoUser2013; 09/09/13 03:23 AM.
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Minnesota Marty] #2147631
09/10/13 02:35 PM
09/10/13 02:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 320
Omaha, NE
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adamp88 Offline
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Omaha, NE
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
My point is that the Steinway pianos are not overpriced, as is the common verbiage repeated, ad nauseam, at PW.


I definitely agree that the D is very competitively priced in comparison to other concert grands. If anything I would argue that in terms of price/performance, the D (at least the NY D) might even be underpriced. However, I do think that the price/performance ratio is not anywhere near as favorable when you move down in size. $50k for a 5'1" instrument is hardly a bargain, and $23k for a 46" upright, especially when that upright is a 1098, isn't much of a deal, either.

But then value is up to the individual customer, and the individual piano, to a degree. I've definitely played a few B's that absolutely lived up to the $90k price tag. I've yet to find an S that similarly justified its cost, though they may be out there. I definitely haven't found a 1098 that has... wink


Adam Schulte-Bukowinski, RPT
Piano Technician, University of Nebraska-Lincoln
ASB Piano Service
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: adamp88] #2147690
09/10/13 03:48 PM
09/10/13 03:48 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 24,792
New York City
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Originally Posted by adamp88
However, I do think that the price/performance ratio is not anywhere near as favorable when you move down in size. $50k for a 5'1" instrument is hardly a bargain, and $23k for a 46" upright, especially when that upright is a 1098, isn't much of a deal, either.
The SMP for a Steinway S is presently 58.6K and the 1098 is 25.1K so the situation is even more extreme. If one truly loves the Steinway sound even in the smaller models then I guess the cost can be justified. But 58.6K(or say 55-56K with a discount)can buy some pianos(with some money left over) that I'd guess many think are a lot better than an S. Some of the pianos on that list would be the Mason BB, Shigeru 7, Schimmel 7', Estonia 7'4".

Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2147703
09/10/13 04:03 PM
09/10/13 04:03 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Minnesota Marty Offline

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Posts: 7,439
Rochester MN
Of course, if one really wants a mini-piano, there are more expensive brands than the S&S-S.


Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2148122
09/11/13 10:06 AM
09/11/13 10:06 AM
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Chopinlover49 Offline
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I think the Schimmel would be a fine choice, but let me ask, did you try the Konzert series? They are extraordinary. The C series is nice, but I would say the Konzert series is worth the extra money. If you want a big piano, the Yamaha is your obvious choice of these four, but again, did they have a similar sized piano in the other brands? It is hard to compare pianos of different sizes. Compare seven footers to other seven footers, etc. Personally, I do not care for the tone of Yamahas generally as I play more classical music, but they are great for jazz, pop, etc. What kind of music do you usually like to perform? It does matter. Most brands are better for certain kinds of music than others. Steinway is pretty versatile, but more for classical. Mason-Hamlin is pretty versatile, but also good for jazz and pop. Bosies are great for Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, etc. You get the picture.

Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Chopinlover49] #2148199
09/11/13 12:25 PM
09/11/13 12:25 PM
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Suffolk, England
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Withindale Offline
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Suffolk, England
Originally Posted by Chopinlover49
Bosies are great for Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, ...

... and Oscar Peterson!


Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: messageliu] #2148346
09/11/13 04:57 PM
09/11/13 04:57 PM
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Of course Oscar did have a Bosie. Really, I think any top-tier piano works with most if not all kinds of music. It is just commonly thought that certain brands shine in certain styles of music. Lots of threads here about that.

Re: Kawai vs Yamaha vs Schimmel [Re: Withindale] #2150136
09/14/13 04:57 PM
09/14/13 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by Chopinlover49
Bosies are great for Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, ...

... and Oscar Peterson!


And Tori Amos. And many other musicians: classical, jazz, pop, whatever you want to call them.

Personally, I've never been into classifying piano brands in terms of which are best for one type of music over another. And I'll never understand why it is such a common belief that Boesendorfers are best suited to music from the Classical period - which only utilises the mid-range of the keyboard - when for me it is the bass and upper register of a Boesendorfer that captivates me the most.

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