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On paper the first Db looks like confirmation of the bass and the A natural supports the melody but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision. In M6 the Bb does echo the melody and is made clear by the change and the D natural climbs to Eb, so there's rising semitones going on in three voices.
I understand that Chopin was inspired to write his Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66, by the Moonlight Sonata but it's interesting that the parallel opus number, 27/2, is in the tonic major!
I missed the three questions on the Moonlight. Any chance of a recap or summary instead of going back over the bit you changed since the last time I wrote and other cryptic wordage?
I've already given my own opinion on the climax in M27 and the reasons for it. I missed the melodic move to C# in M40 as it's out of sorts with the rhythm but I did notice the return of the tonic key and the incessant triplet rhythm, and the chromatic ending of the dom. prep. passage.
keystring, where would you put several climaxes (if you would)? Would you put in any climaxes at all?
I haven't worked through the piece that way, but I have a feeling that there are different choices, and that it depends on what you do with the piece as a whole.
I didn't have any particular choice in mind; I was just wondering if you had any thoughts on the matter. You had deflected Polyphonist's single climax question, so I wondered if you had a different view on climaxes.
(they could be partnered with A nat, A nat, Bb which precede but it's a different effect)
Those are the two I was thinking of.
Richard, my previous questions have already been answered in some way. I'm planning to do a few on interpretation and shape of phrases (since I find this is something that is lacking in a lot of performances). How about coming up with a few examples and posting them here for us? Any interesting inner voices anyone's found and would like to share?
I have now listened to this movement ad infinitum, using Jean-Bernard Pommier's recording. I should listen to some other recordings, to see if there are differences in interpretation that I can notice. The flaw I think in listening so much to one recording is that now I have no independent ideas of my own for discovering the music. I suppose it's good to learn from a master, but it's a strange feeling.
Having listened to it and thought about Polyphonist's questions, I'm not sure I can answer interpretation questions in isolation (although I'm game to keep trying). Part of deciding interpretation, for me, depends on working out the harmony, which I haven't done yet. (We did it in the previous thread, but I need to refresh my memory and also approach it in a slightly different way.) I can't hear the harmony to distinguish where it's changing, so this is mostly a paper and pencil exercise for me. But it still gives me potential ideas for expression or what to try to listen for. In this movement I'm not sure if there are many variations in expression. Pommier has a slight crescendo on the ascending chromatic triplets, and a decrescendo coming back down, and there are a few momentary crescendos in the score that he observes, but for the most part it's very smooth and he lets the notes speak for themselves. He does have shaping (a slight or not so slight decrescendo) at the end of every phrase, which is very lovely.
One thing that surprised me listening to it was that the middle section in triplets looks so very busy, but in fact at Adagio it's very sedate and calm, just like the rest of the piece.
Part of deciding interpretation, for me, depends on working out the harmony, which I haven't done yet. (We did it in the previous thread, but I need to refresh my memory and also approach it in a slightly different way.) I can't hear the harmony to distinguish where it's changing, so this is mostly a paper and pencil exercise for me.
Well, which harmonies are you still not sure about?
Polyphonist, your pointing out this aspect of the music was a good thing to do. I'm glad that the specific thing you were after was finally named.
My difficulty with such questions is that I then try to interpret the question, try to figure out what the asker is after and what he meant with his words.
In the Moonlight itself, I saw the chromatic rise that you were trying to point out. I also saw two figures that echo each other, and these figures are notes that I would want to emphasize in my playing. I also see those figures within the context of that chromatic rise, and finally, I see a resolution - a reaching toward a destination, at which point the music changes its mood.
So among what I saw in those four measures, I saw the specific one that you were after. But how will I know WHICH THING of all these things, you are asking about? It may be better to actually mention number of things, rather than trying to find the answer to the one question.
Well, which harmonies are you still not sure about?
I don't have any specific questions right now.
I have to go through the whole movement looking at the chords, chord by chord. I want to start by listening for cadences and identifying them, and build from there. If I'm going to learn, I can't replace this work by just using a list of the chords, keys or harmony posted -- I need to work it through myself. Then I can use the list to check places I'm unsure of. Similarly with cadences: I want to go through the piece listening to hear where I can hear a cadence. Then I can check that against the list of cadences you posted. If I just start from your list and mark them in, I won't be learning anything about hearing or independent analysis.
dire tonic, thank you for posting the Fantasie Impromptu. Now I'm curious as to what led him to pick out those particular notes for emphasis at 3:13 ff. Would need a score to analyse it though; I can't figure it out just from listening.
dire tonic, thank you for posting the Fantasie Impromptu. Now I'm curious as to what led him to pick out those particular notes for emphasis at 3:13 ff. Would need a score to analyse it though; I can't figure it out just from listening.
Yes, do check it out. As I remember it, he was simply lengthening all notes that were physically possible to lengthen (basically the thumb notes of both hands, I think) - so it wasn't in any way an aesthetic judgement, i.e. some would say it's a cacophony. Yet it is a coherent but usually buried counter-melody. I love it.
On paper the first Db looks like confirmation of the bass and the A natural supports the melody but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision. In M6 the Bb does echo the melody and is made clear by the change and the D natural climbs to Eb, so there's rising semitones going on in three voices.
Not only on paper, but if you audiate it as well. But you have to know what was asked in order to get at the wanted answer.
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I understand that Chopin was inspired to write his Fantaisie-Impromptu, Op. 66, by the Moonlight Sonata but it's interesting that the parallel opus number, 27/2, is in the tonic major!
Having this information would have helped greatly. If I had those two excerpts side by side, knew one was inspired by the other, and if I was told to look for the one thing that they both did the same, then I would know which of the aspects that I see in the music to look for. Now the juxtaposition makes sense, and it is interesting.
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I missed the three questions on the Moonlight.
I know of two. One involved finding something in the melody embedded in those notes, which turns out to be the chromatic movement. The other was a red herring: we were to find "the climax" but Pp agreed later that there wasn't really one "the climax" which might have been the point being made.
hth
The things being brought out are indeed worthy of being mentioned.
I don't hear anything related to chromatic ascents in the Fantasie Impromptu, nor that would particularly lead me to think about emphasizing inner voices (even though I can clearly hear that a curious thing is happening at 3:13 ff).
This lack of hearing is not necessarily related to what is or isn't in the Fantasie Impromptu. I just don't hear music very well, at least as far as the aspects that other people seem to be able to hear and name.
The only thing I could say that Moonlight and Fantasie both do the same is that the LH is in triplets (at least I think the LH is in triplets -- what I seem to recall about the FI is that it's 4 against 3, with 4 in the RH and 3 in the LH). But that doesn't seem to be what's being talked about here. In any case, I can't actually hear what the counts of notes are in the FI; I just hear lots of notes flowing together in a very musical way.
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.
I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.
Aesthetic perception? I understood peripheral vision is better at detecting motion across all species.
I may have misunderstood the physics but I was using a colloquialism not trying to suggest we were sharing the same aesthetics and although I didn't single you out I was definitely not making assumptions about your perception, aesthetic or otherwise.
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.
I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.
Aesthetic perception? I understood peripheral vision is better at detecting motion across all species.
I may have misunderstood the physics but I was using a colloquialism not trying to suggest we were sharing the same aesthetics and although I didn't single you out I was definitely not making assumptions about your perception, aesthetic or otherwise.
The metaphor is pretentious and inadequate for the effect the music has on me.
... but as soon as the Db changes to D natural the change brings it out, like movement in our peripheral vision.
I'd prefer not to be assumed to be sharing the same aesthetic perceptions...if you don't mind.
Aesthetic perception? I understood peripheral vision is better at detecting motion across all species.
I may have misunderstood the physics but I was using a colloquialism not trying to suggest we were sharing the same aesthetics and although I didn't single you out I was definitely not making assumptions about your perception, aesthetic or otherwise.
The metaphor is pretentious and inadequate for the effect the music has on me.
I wasn't writing about the effect the had on you but how I heard it. The change in the inner voice was easy for me to hear.
Many register movement quicker in peripheral vision than when looking straight at something. I didn't think the analogy was at all pretentious.
In future please consider that when I write 'our' I am writing in the plural or general sense and seldom, if ever, including all. You may assume for convenience that I never include you. In fact I think it's a bit presumptuous that you assume I did.
Yes, you’re right, it was presumptuous on my part – that was a mistake. Re-reading, I think it might have had something to do with the fact that I don’t understand what you’re getting at in that first sentence – none of it. By the time I got to the peripheral vision I was seeing stars and quite centrally at that. It still sounds meaningless to me but I don’t want to press any further. Maybe after the recital when heads will be clearer you or someone else can paraphrase it for me.
