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I currently own an Baldwin Acrosonic. I'm just learning piano. I love it. I'm certain I will continue until I can play no more.

Thinking about replacing my Acrosonic, I've played lots of pianos and will need more time before I can truly find the right piano for me. As a stop gap measure, I'm considering buying an old, large upright. They are usually free or less than $500 where I live in Northern California.

I looked carefully at David Burton's thread on the Golden Age of Pianos. He rates three companies with "5" stars, Steinway, Mason Hamlin, and Knabe. Several others with "4" stars. I see some of these old upright pianos come-up for sale or for take away. I heard a couple over the weekend and they sounded fantastic. Of course they had been tweaked by a piano tech. I also suspect the SF Bay area climate has helped preserve some of these old pianos.

I'm tempted to pick-up one of these old beast to get that rip roaring base sound my Acrsonic can not make.

I'm a little afraid of buying a grey market U3 at $4K or a new U3 at $8K, or a used Schimmel at $10K... knowing that eventually I'll want a grand piano. It's the logistics of trying to sell it and get back most of the investment. With an old beast, it's just the sad thought of having to haul it to its final resting place.


Would love to hear the thoughts of others. (I do have the piano buyers guide, had an old Steinway M checked out by a knowledgeable re-builder, and keep a basic check list of what to look for, i.e. cracks, verdigris, sound, etc.)

Thanks - Rick

Have you considered renting a piano as your gap measure?

Hi, Rick (nice name, by-the-way )

I too have a weakness for old uprights. They can have a deep, rich bass and a sweet treble. However, as with anything made of wood, felt and metal, they do deteriorate and degenerate with time and the elements.

You might get lucky and find one that is still fairly playable as is... or with just a little work.

On the other hand, based on my tinkering with old uprights thus far, I've come to the conclusion that newer is generally better.

I made a video of me playing one of my old uprights and posted it on YouTube about 2 years and it has over 530,000 views; you just never know what someone will like, I suppose.

Good luck, and let us know what you come up with!

Rick

I'm not sure what the market is like there, but you may consider a taller upright of a lesser quality brand like a Samick, Young Chang or similar make. At least around here you can find these used for around $1000 to $1500. At least in this price range it would be easier to resell when you went to upgrade to a grand. You would also get the bigger sound of the taller piano. It wouldn't have the same sound as a Yamaha or Kawai, but it may have nearly the sound of some of the older uprights with a much better functioning action.

Thanks. All good observations. Rental is another way to go and there are some inexpensive Samick/Young Chang pianos in the area.

I'm going to look at an old Knabe on Wednesday. The owner claims it is very playable.

Oh, by the way, Rick I did find your youtube video while searching for examples of old uprights. I got a big kick out of it.

An English technician provided me with a "hit list" of top quality German pianos. I thought it would take a year or two to find a tall one in good condition. It actually didn't take long but I was lucky. I haven't noticed a similar one since, though the piano auctions in London look interesting.

Your market is different, no doubt, but I suspect you will still have pay a technician to do quite a bit of work, or learn how to do it yourself.

Another option might be finding a console or studio that is newer and in good shape. The piano still will likely need some work, but it won't be the type of work an old upright will need. Investing in these old beasts can easily surpass the value of the instrument.

Add to the equation that an old upright can frustrate your playing, and in some cases hinder your ability and desire to play. Sticky uneven keyboards can make you throw up your hands and not practice. Last but not least, they usually bring a musty smell, and at times, small visitors to your home.

"...Thoughts on Buying an Old Upright Piano?..."

Second thing (after trying the keys): open the top and bottom panels and check for mice.

This is actually real advice, and not a snide remark.

Don't let the Mice fool you. They are just as comfortable in a new 6 figure Steinway grand as they are in an old upright, The felt just tastes better on a new piano. Older Mice prefer softer felt.

I'd be more worried about the Termites and possible Spiders in an old stored in a garage type of piano

Bringing small visitors to my home made me laugh. Termites and a musty smell are also real concerns. I am going to look at a Knabe upright in San Francisco on Wednesday. Unless its that one in a 1000 that has survived most of the ravages of time I'll walk from it. Having lived in the city for several years, I know there is a fog belt in part of the city that feeds mold. There are just three links in the chain of ownership; most of its 100 years were spent in one home.

Everyone raises real concerns. The more I think about it, a dozen hours of tech time at $70-$90 an hour may be inescapable. The action will have to equal or exceed my 1950's Acrosonic, which I find wonderfully responsive, but lacking on the bass.

Thanks - Rick

There are lots of pitfalls, but there are some good old pianos out there. I recently had an old Gulbransen (sp?) given to me.

It took $300 worth of tech work, but it plays pretty darn good.

When looking at one of these old pianos look for:

1. Rust on the strings, screwheads or tuning pins. Much rust ain't good.

2. Keys. A sticking key, or two is not a big deal, not usually. A row of keys that look like a hilly golf course will cost you.

3. Hammers. If the hammers are severely worn, or the piano is missing hammers, it might be one to walk away from.

4. Strings. Badly rusted strings or several missing strings are not good.

5. Pedals. Again, if they don't work, you're looking at money to have them fixed. We're trying not to spend money.

6. Outside finish. Maybe it's just me, but I figure if someone will abuse the outside of a piano, they don't care much about the inside, either. That doesn't apply to alligatoring, however...not much an owner can do about that, and there are ways to address the problem without spending much money.

Back to the Gulbransen...it was a two owner piano and the second person didn't play (mother handed down to daughter). I got it when the daughter died and granddaughter had no place for it. Piano had probably not been played in at least 15 years, but it was inside of a house.

Keys were a bit yellowed, but pretty even. One key was stuck, a couple moved, but didn't play. Looking on the inside, I saw a couple of strings broke and a hammer broken (who knows why, maybe kids?). Very little rust and the pedals worked. Finish is alligatored.

Like I said, with a little TLC, it's still a decent working piano. Probably wouldn't work for an advancing student, but it does quite well for get-togethers and sing-alongs.

I think if you look hard and remember condition trumps the name on the fallboard, you can find an upright piano that still has some life left. Just pay attention to details and be a little picky as you look.

Good luck.

Some other things to out for in an old piano.

1. Tubby sounding wound strings
2. Badly cracked soundboards
3. Split bridges
4. Lack of tone in the treble / killer octave
5. Doped pin block and tuning pins that have been punched in closer to the plate

And as mentioned, worn out hammers and rusty strings. A set of new hammers will set you back a considerable amount and rusty strings can break when tuned.

You forgot to mention moth larvae… I had on old “Lennox” upright given to me by my mom’s neighbor a few years ago. I put it in my garage with the intention of tinkering with it and restoring it to some level of playability. Upon removing the fall board and keys, I discovered live moth larvae wiggling inside the felt strips under the keys. I got rid of the moth larvae but decided the piano needed more work than I was willing to put in it. I did salvage some decorative wood panels, which I still have. However, the rest of the piano went to the salvage yard.

The thing about the old uprights is… there are lots and lots of them still out there. Some in playable condition and some (most, probably) are not.

But, hey they are still a lot of fun to play!

Rick

An update - I made it to San Francisco yesterday to try a Knabe piano the owner said was in great condition. To the owner's credit, she told me in advance she knew very little about pianos.

From the serial number, 92313, I used information on the piano rescue web site to date the piano to 1921. I'm
guessing this is after the Knabe brothers were gone and American Piano owned the Knabe name. It is a beautifully
made piano, AAA+ sound board, and no real structural damage visible anywhere. It has a deep base sound, but then:
1) The hammers were very worn (hard like rocks), a few replaced with the wrong size hammer
2) All the key tops replaced with plastic except one ivory (was told original ivory on all key tops)
3) Some of the keys didn't play, or came back up slowly
4) The return straps (what are they called) had been replaced on some keys, old ones on others, and some keys without the return straps

In my humble opinion, the piano needs some amount of, the amount unknown to me. It is not nearly as "playable" as my 1950's Acrosonic. I am taking a pass on this piano.

On plus side, the piano was very in tune, and I brought a piano hammer to check the pin block - it was tight. Owner claimed the piano had not been tuned in many years - SF weather and lack of playing?

Owner was asking $500. As I was leaving, she asked what I thought it might be worth. I was very reluctant to say anything. It was not a family heirloom. I repeated some of the often given advice here about very old upright pianos and why it is hard to justify repairing them.

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Have I given up on buying an old upright piano? No. It's just more apparent that the prospects of finding what I'm looking for are slim. There are many, many old upright pianos out there, just maybe there is one out there with my name on it.

I didn't bother to take photos of the Knabe's action. Wished I had for contrast.

THIS IS YET ANOTHER UPRIGHT PIANO - MUCH BETTER SHAPE THAN THE KNABE

Here is a photo of another piano that I will be looking at. The owner plays piano so I'm starting out this time with his testimonial that the piano is in very good condition musically.

Here are a couple of photos. Comments on the photos are welcome. (Owner thinks all parts are original - I guess from photos that the hammers/return straps are newish.)


Thanks - Rick


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Thanks for the follow-up. The old Knabe looks to be in fairly good shape for its age. It is always interesting to hear/read old piano adventures.

I had another one (old piano adventure) myself a few weeks ago... I saw an old upright on CL that was not too far from home (those are the most tempting ) I contacted the seller and asked for the dimensions and name brand and I had never heard of the brand they mentioned in an email... turns out, it was an old Otto Altenburg, and the name decal on the fall board was half missing.

It was probably from the early 1930's or 40's and had a lot of wear, very tubby bass, but a good bit of charm. The asking price was $400 and the owner said she'd take $250. I told them I would think about it and let them know. The next day, I called and offered $150. The owner countered with $200. I decided to stick with my offer. The lady said she would talk to her husband and get back with me.

I didn't hear from her for a few days, and in the meantime I was itching for a project piano... so, I bought the Kimball baby grand I have now. The owner of the old Otto Altenburg called the day after I had bought the Kimball and said she'd sell it to me for my original offer of $150. I told her thanks, but I had already bought another project piano.

I think I need to control my PAS (piano acquisition syndrome) condition and spend more time actually learning to play the piano.

Rick

Rick,

That is my big worry. I don't need a "piano" project and it is quite time consuming just responding to adds. Moving the piano, cleaning it up, tuning, I have to ask, maybe I'd be better off just buying something ready to go. I still enjoy the hunt.

The other Rick

Like I’ve said before here on the forum, as I get older and more experienced with pianos, I’ve decided that newer is usually better in terms of musicality and playability. I still think the older uprights (and grands) from yesteryear have a lot of charm, and a lot of potential.

And, you are right, Rick, the hunt for that prize piano (for not a lot of $) is a lot of fun!

Rick (when I took Spanish in High School, they called me Ricardo )