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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146061
09/07/13 09:48 PM
09/07/13 09:48 PM
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Yes. Besides, like I always say. He was so insecure himself, that there's no way to know how much of his recordings are sincere interpretations and how many are a result of self doubt?

I don't know how to describe it.

But yes, he preferred Horowitz and Moiseiwitsch to his own.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146064
09/07/13 09:57 PM
09/07/13 09:57 PM
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Canada
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I think that listening to pieces is good for discourse, and challenging one's ideas. I listen to pieces after I've worked out some sort of interpretation or when I've studied the piece and have a general idea of what to do with it.

It's interesting how some pianists don't listen to anybody at all though...


Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146070
09/07/13 10:13 PM
09/07/13 10:13 PM
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned listening to recordings is a good way of discovering new pieces one might want to learn and perform yet. I know for myself that certainly gets pieces on my radar. I also enjoy trawling through the member's recording forum and listening to community members. It's a good way to support each other I think. But I can honesty say I can't think of any instance I've learned something from studying a recording (as I conclude is being suggested by the OP).

I've really enjoyed developing the skill of listening to oneself and the musicality that lies therein. It's something I never thought I could do and is actually a really interesting topic to expand on but gets a bit subjective (is it best to listen to the tones? the music? etc.)

Last edited by wower; 09/07/13 10:15 PM. Reason: oops. posted too soon.

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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146115
09/08/13 12:16 AM
09/08/13 12:16 AM
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I find it strange that some of you feel that one method of learning is how everyone should do it. I also find it strange that some of you think you know better than the OP what's good for him/her. When one person actually gave an answer to the question some people jumped on him and said that was all wrong! What has ensued has been 5 pages of arguing whether listening to recordings is a good idea. Talk about hijacking a thread, how incredibly rude! What does it matter to any of us if the OP listens to a few recordings? Let him or her get their feet wet and back to enjoying playing piano. Do any of you honestly think this arguing is encouraging to the OP?

To the OP. let me apologize for my fellow PW forum members. It seems they're sometimes more interested in arguing their viewpoints than helping new members. Let me add one cautionary note, Glenn Gould is one way to play Bach. His performances make interesting arguments, they bring out things other performances may not, but they are ar from the only or best way to play Bach. Which gets us back to the point of the argument that's ensued for 5 pages. I believe it's hard to make a judgment about ones own playing without some knowledge of the tradition of interpretation of a piece. You can get that from a teacher, but you can also get it from a recording. You can also be led astray by a recording. If you're going to listen to recordings to help develop an interpretation listen to lots of them. That usually means going to YouTube. Buy the ones that thrill you if you want to have them in your permanent collection.

Contrary to what copyright law would have us believe there are many copyrighted performances on YouTube that are currently available CDs. Sometimes it seems YouTube only goes after student performers claiming they're copyrighted performances, but that's a discussion for another time.

Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146133
09/08/13 01:13 AM
09/08/13 01:13 AM
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Stores's argument is a noble one but I think it has a crucial flaw. It assumes that by listening to a specific recording, those artistic choices will subconsciously come through in your own playing. I don't think that's 100% the case. I think it all boils down to whether or not you can think for yourself.

The first couple of years I played piano, I tried to emulate my favorite recordings. I used to dismiss my own ideas as poor just because they weren't in my favorite pianists' recordings. I eventually grew out of that and started thinking for myself, even contradicting interpretations of my influences. Now, I'm proud of my ideas if I feel they're good ones.

It has nothing to do with "doing my homework" prior to listening; it has to do with getting out of the way of my musical ideas, letting them be free and expanding on them. When I tackle a new piece, I don't give a damn what my favorite pianists have done with it because I want jump in it and see what happens for myself!

Last edited by JoelW; 09/08/13 01:18 AM.
Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Steve Chandler] #2146135
09/08/13 01:15 AM
09/08/13 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
I find it strange that some of you feel that one method of learning is how everyone should do it. I also find it strange that some of you think you know better than the OP what's good for him/her. When one person actually gave an answer to the question some people jumped on him and said that was all wrong! What has ensued has been 5 pages of arguing whether listening to recordings is a good idea. Talk about hijacking a thread, how incredibly rude! What does it matter to any of us if the OP listens to a few recordings? Let him or her get their feet wet and back to enjoying playing piano. Do any of you honestly think this arguing is encouraging to the OP?


I don't necessarily cut this discussion narrowly down to only "how people learn" but also include parallels like what the ultimate skills and goals of musicianship might look like and what things might undermine that progression. Further to the point, if one wanted to improve long distance running and a poster was suggesting scrapbooking, one could reasonably say that suggestion is getting further away from a helpful improvement technique. So there is a point of reference at the extremes.

As for thread hijacking, it's the public internet.

The OP is more than welcome to chime in anytime to redirect.

Last edited by wower; 09/08/13 01:32 AM. Reason: brevity

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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146138
09/08/13 01:31 AM
09/08/13 01:31 AM
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Calgary
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Actually it occurs to me there is a system of democratic forum policing: http://stackexchange.com/ It's not perfect but I've often thought about starting a piano one. I've been bouncing around Mathematics and Math Overflow for years. But those are much more objective topics. I think it's great.


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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146143
09/08/13 01:40 AM
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I'd like to make another point.

There's nothing wrong with being subconsciously influenced by other pianists, or even choosing to adopt one of their choices. We all stand on the shoulders of the ones before us. It's a universal truth. By stores's reasoning, Einstein should have just "done his homework" and figured out what Newton had already discovered.

Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Steve Chandler] #2146195
09/08/13 05:45 AM
09/08/13 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler

To the OP. let me apologize for my fellow PW forum members.


Please don't - we can speak for ourselves, and apologize if we think it necessary. In this case, I don't think it is. The OP may not have got what was asked for, but did get a taste of how contentious this issue can be, which, in fact, may be useful and thought provoking.

At any rate, if we all gave what we thought were good suggestions of recordings, you know quite well that the chances are pretty good that arguments would ensue about the recommendations. And, too, there would probably be so many recommendations that it would still not be particularly helpful to the OP.

What I would suggest, as a practical solution, is going to ArkivMusic and pulling up the recordings for each piece that is of interest. Then, click on "Recommended" to narrow it down. Then start reading the info for each recording and see what sounds appealing (and narrow it down further by watching the form of the recording - you don't need a huge box set for just one piece).




Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Steve Chandler] #2146204
09/08/13 06:33 AM
09/08/13 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
If you're going to listen to recordings to help develop an interpretation listen to lots of them.


Of course, one isn't really developing their own interpretation then.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: JoelW] #2146210
09/08/13 06:49 AM
09/08/13 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Stores's argument is a noble one but I think it has a crucial flaw. It assumes that by listening to a specific recording, those artistic choices will subconsciously come through in your own playing. I don't think that's 100% the case. I think it all boils down to whether or not you can think for yourself.

The first couple of years I played piano, I tried to emulate my favorite recordings. I used to dismiss my own ideas as poor just because they weren't in my favorite pianists' recordings. I eventually grew out of that and started thinking for myself, even contradicting interpretations of my influences. Now, I'm proud of my ideas if I feel they're good ones.

It has nothing to do with "doing my homework" prior to listening; it has to do with getting out of the way of my musical ideas, letting them be free and expanding on them. When I tackle a new piece, I don't give a damn what my favorite pianists have done with it because I want jump in it and see what happens for myself!


Of course, it boils down to thinking for yourself... that is the whole point.

It doesn't matter, whether, or not, that's 100% the case. That doesn't mean the argument is crucially flawed. Of course, listening to recordings isn't going to affect every single person the same way, but why then listen at all? What's the point? People listen to recordings of whatever it is they're working on, because, nine times out of ten, they don't know what they're doing in various spots.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: JoelW] #2146213
09/08/13 07:10 AM
09/08/13 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JoelW
I'd like to make another point.

There's nothing wrong with being subconsciously influenced by other pianists, or even choosing to adopt one of their choices. We all stand on the shoulders of the ones before us. It's a universal truth. By stores's reasoning, Einstein should have just "done his homework" and figured out what Newton had already discovered.


Then you can't call it your own interpretation. If you adopt their choices, those choices are still theirs and not yours.
If you feel there is nothing wrong with being influenced by others and adopting their choices then you don't need to do anything else do you? You're all set, because you've got everything you need. Don't bother with a teacher. Don't bother learning anything more. We're too smart for our own good sometimes aren't we?



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: trisha2766] #2146216
09/08/13 07:16 AM
09/08/13 07:16 AM
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As I've said many times in the past, if listening to recordings of things actually influenced people's interpretations, then a lot more people would sound like Argerich and Horowitz.

Or I'll put it this way - I bet if we all went to the Members' Recording forum and tried to guess who's listened to recordings in forming their interpretations and who hasn't, we wouldn't do a very good job.

Sure, every now and then I can hear that someone's trying to emulate a particular recorded performance, but not that often.

I think the choice of teacher is far more influential. Most students I know do inherit something of their teachers' style. Would we then suggest that no one study with a teacher in an effort to be truly original?

This whole argument (which I've heard a thousand times here and elsewhere) is absurd. Listen if you want. Or don't.


"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: stores] #2146218
09/08/13 07:31 AM
09/08/13 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
If you're going to listen to recordings to help develop an interpretation listen to lots of them.


Of course, one isn't really developing their own interpretation then.
Why is that important for a pianist who has only recently returned to playing the instrument?

Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Kreisler] #2146230
09/08/13 08:14 AM
09/08/13 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
I think the choice of teacher is far more influential. Most students I know do inherit something of their teachers' style. Would we then suggest that no one study with a teacher in an effort to be truly original?
Agree 100%.

Learning something from a great recording is, I think, little different from learning something from a teacher or learning something from a score edited by a great pianist or from an article about a piece by a great pianist. Yet few of those recommending against listening to a recording would recommend against having a teacher.

Many piano studios or master classes have two pianos for the specific reason of allowing the teacher to demonstrate something on the second piano without having the student get up from the first piano each time.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/08/13 08:50 AM.
Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Steve Chandler] #2146242
09/08/13 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
If you're going to listen to recordings to help develop an interpretation listen to lots of them.


Of course, one isn't really developing their own interpretation then.
Why is that important for a pianist who has only recently returned to playing the instrument?
Agree completely(assuming you mean that it isn't important).

I think listening to a recordings or multiple recordings doesn't preclude developing one's own interpretation and more than taking a lesson doesn't preclude it. If it did then all the excellent professional pianists who are in favor of listening to other pianists(not saying they all think this way) would not be excellent professional pianists.

For the 99.9% of pianists who are not conservatory or professional level, I think developing their own very original interpretation is of minor consequence compared to a long list of more basic things. This may be important for pianists at the highest professional level, but even there I think many of those pianists are influenced by their teachers and by recordings/concerts of other pianists.

Listening to a recording doesn't necessarily mean the pianist won't have something to say(part of the pianist's own thoughts and feelings will appear in their performance) or that one must mindlessly imitate a recording by a great pianist.

In summary:
Recordings by great pianists are a terrific source of ideas and understanding.

For a small percent of pianists with vast understanding working in a vacuum may be a good or reasonable idea. For the rest, I think part of doing the homework should be listening to recordings by great pianists at one point in the learning process.


Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/08/13 08:46 AM.
Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Kreisler] #2146248
09/08/13 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by stores
People listen to recordings of whatever it is they're working on, because, nine times out of ten, they don't know what they're doing in various spots.


I've observed this in my own playing as well. And because I'm not in the habit of listening to recordings, I bring the trouble spot to my teacher for a formal and intuitive understanding.

Originally Posted by Kreisler
This whole argument (which I've heard a thousand times here and elsewhere) is absurd. Listen if you want. Or don't.


Phew. I'm glad Kreisler said this first. I didn't want to seem cold saying I really don't care at all - like at all - if the OP listens to recordings or not. I've always assumed the OP is the same way; if my suggestion is off base and not applicable to the OP's situation it will be ignored. I guess Steve is right these same unknowns about the OP can lead to different assumptions. We can assume the OP is a sensitive flower, just on the internet for the first time, and we are all here today strictly for their edification. Digressions will not be tolerated, even if many forum members find value in them.


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Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Kreisler] #2146264
09/08/13 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
As I've said many times in the past, if listening to recordings of things actually influenced people's interpretations, then a lot more people would sound like Argerich and Horowitz.



No they wouldn't and you know they wouldn't and you know why. Don't spew out some crap like that and expect it to get taken seriously.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: wower] #2146269
09/08/13 10:06 AM
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Is there any reputable teacher today who would tell his/her pupils never to listen to recordings or live performances of anything they were learning?

And is there any serious pianist today who hasn't heard at least one performance of a piece he's working on - other than something very contemporary, or something very obscure? (If he really hasn't heard, say, a Bach P&F he's working on, one would seriously have to question how serious a pianist he is).

All my teachers encouraged me to listen to as many performances of the music I was learning as possible (and this was long before the age of YouTube), as well as find my own voice. And almost all the music I chose to learn for myself (without the help of any teacher) was because I first heard it played by someone else on the radio, or because it was in a volume of music I'd already bought on that basis.
And I suspect that the vast majority of pianists today take up works after hearing recordings of them, and liking what they hear (unless they're very young, and completely reliant on their teachers to spoon-feed them....).

And how right Kreisler is - who is the pianist whose playing most closely resembled Horowitz's? None other than Byron Janis, Horowitz's favorite pupil.....


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: looking for good recordings of pieces I'm working on [Re: Kreisler] #2146271
09/08/13 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kreisler
As I've said many times in the past, if listening to recordings of things actually influenced people's interpretations, then a lot more people would sound like Argerich and Horowitz.

Or I'll put it this way - I bet if we all went to the Members' Recording forum and tried to guess who's listened to recordings in forming their interpretations and who hasn't, we wouldn't do a very good job.

Sure, every now and then I can hear that someone's trying to emulate a particular recorded performance, but not that often.

I think the choice of teacher is far more influential. Most students I know do inherit something of their teachers' style. Would we then suggest that no one study with a teacher in an effort to be truly original?

This whole argument (which I've heard a thousand times here and elsewhere) is absurd. Listen if you want. Or don't.


It is silly, but I disagree that we would have more Horowitz's. I think we would have them if the proposed imitator had the ability, but they don't.

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