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#2145523 - 09/06/13 10:44 PM Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)?  
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Steve Armstrong Offline
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hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education. For example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).

Does anyone know of any books or articles that discuss this?

Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources. Thanks!



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#2145531 - 09/06/13 11:42 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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In the US, there is almost no agreement and certainly no organized effort to suggest or enforce such a curriculum.

If you polled college professors in the US and asked them, I'm almost sure they'd all say "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla" Either that, or they'd point out that Beethoven was taught Bach as a youngster, so we should do that, too... (more blablablablabla...)

I can't even think of an academic journal that would publish such an article. It's a little too specific for JRME, and the audience isn't quite right for AMT or Clavier Companion (neither of which are academic journals anyway), and nobody really writes or reads the peer-reviewed MTNA eJournal. It might be treated in the USC online journal, but it's not widely read.


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#2145565 - 09/07/13 01:22 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Steve,

I'm rather curious why you'd want to approach the question that way.

Do you doubt the efficacy of assigning Bach during the years of study? Or do you wonder why it's required on college-level auditions?

Myself, I think that it's required audition rep because it's very difficult to make that kind of thing sound like music. College-level teachers are only interested in considering students that can make it sound like...something.

No, that's not going to show up in an academic journal. But then again, why do you want a citation in a music journal? It's not going to have a strong basis in science anyway, if that's what you're looking for.


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#2145627 - 09/07/13 06:36 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education. For example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).

Does anyone know of any books or articles that discuss this?

Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources. Thanks!

Are you writing a paper on this subject?


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#2145684 - 09/07/13 09:33 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Good luck finding 'actual sources' that do not reflect opinions on this or any other topic.


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#2145722 - 09/07/13 11:03 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: malkin]  
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Originally Posted by malkin
Good luck finding 'actual sources' that do not reflect opinions on this or any other topic.

Nicely put! smirk

I don't have any actual sources, either, but I do have plenty of opinions on this subject, with which I could easily "clog up" the thread.


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#2145842 - 09/07/13 02:10 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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What an arrogant way of posing the question.


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#2145859 - 09/07/13 02:39 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
hFor example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).



Do they?? Never heard of this...

#2145897 - 09/07/13 04:18 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Morodiene]  
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education. For example, many institutes require prelude and fugues, and/or all the 2 & 3 part inventions in the first year(s).

Does anyone know of any books or articles that discuss this?

Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources. Thanks!

Are you writing a paper on this subject?


Yeah, I got the distinct impression that Mr. Armstrong was asking us to do his homework for him. wink


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#2145934 - 09/07/13 05:23 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
hi everyone
Looking for some actual sources, not opinionsthat address the importance of learning Bach in the early years of study, especially in higher education.


This reminds me of George Carlin talking about "jumbo shrimp"...which is it, Jumbo or Shrimp?

In other words are you asking about "early years of study" (elementary) or the later years of study (college).

I would think that "early years of study" rules out college studies. Perhaps the OP misunderstood his assignment.

#2145941 - 09/07/13 05:36 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


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#2145989 - 09/07/13 07:09 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: KurtZ]  
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Originally Posted by KurtZ
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


laugh

Does anyone know the answer? Please do not give opinions. I only want academic sources cited.

#2146109 - 09/07/13 11:41 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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wow you are all really blowing this way out of proportion. Stop looking too far into it and making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. My question doesn't even express an opinion. I'm not questioning any institutes' methods, or whatever. Mr. Armstrong does not in fact have an assignment or a paper. I simply asked if anyone knows of any sources that discuss this topic, that's it. There are similar ideas to this such as playing Hanon. Rachmaninoff said in his first year, all students had to play every Hanon exercise in every key at ridiculous tempi. I just wanted to know if there is any discussion about Bach specifically in the first year (or any year really). Is that so hard?

I'd expect everybody's opinions would be the similar if not the same to any text - that's not the point. But hey who knows, a source might even say Bach isn't important! Again, not the point. Just want to find a published source that discusses/addresses/mentions the topic. I'm not looking for sources that contradict opinions, or support! God.

There's that many GD posts here that talk about Bach in early years at least with beginners with the Bach minuets. It was required of me to learn a prelude and fugue in first year of tertiary studies but I didn't have to choose one of Bach's. I know a former pupil of Michelangeli who said that she could play all of Rachmaninoff's concertos but when she began studies with Michelangeli, he made her "start over" with Bach inventions. I have also read about the topic in the Etude magazine - I think it was - but can't find it again! Well all know the benefits of learning Bach, again, I'm just looking for a source that discusses it.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then great, if not, you don't need to say anything. Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)




Prokofiev Seventh
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#2146120 - 09/08/13 12:34 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s) [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)
Well, it's possible that the tone of your request might have had something to do with the tone of the replies. It did seem somewhat blunt and demanding.
Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
Please don't clog up this thread with "it's the independency of lines musically and technically blablabla"...I know...I don't care, I just need academic sources.


Du holde Kunst...
#2146132 - 09/08/13 01:11 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s) [Re: currawong]  
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well sure it could be interpreted that way. It's hard to be sure about tone.


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#2146154 - 09/08/13 02:11 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
I know a former pupil of Michelangeli who said that she could play all of Rachmaninoff's concertos but when she began studies with Michelangeli, he made her "start over" with Bach inventions. I have also read about the topic in the Etude magazine - I think it was - but can't find it again! Well all know the benefits of learning Bach, again, I'm just looking for a source that discusses it.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then great, if not, you don't need to say anything. Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)




I myself am not familiar enough with the topic to be able to [yet] personally direct you to textual resources, however, I do keep this thread bookmarked which discusses Bach's 2+3part inventions in detail - both how they were written with the purpose of being compositional exercises (and not specifically technical ones) and how they may best be taught/learned. There's also a nice link to another thread regarding ornamentation of the inventions. See here: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,2714.msg23310.html#msg23310

Also, perhaps one of these pedagogical texts on technique might provide a more objective analysis of Bach's works and the pedagogical value contained therein: http://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226


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#2146169 - 09/08/13 03:00 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Bobpickle]  
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Thanks bobpickle! Maybe not quite what I'm looking for but looks interesting anyway. Will have to go through them smile


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#2146327 - 09/08/13 11:54 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Overexposed]  
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Originally Posted by Ann in Kentucky
Originally Posted by KurtZ
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


laugh

Does anyone know the answer? Please do not give opinions. I only want academic sources cited.


Well played Ann, well played.

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#2146433 - 09/08/13 02:11 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
wow you are all really blowing this way out of proportion. Stop looking too far into it and making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. My question doesn't even express an opinion. I'm not questioning any institutes' methods, or whatever. Mr. Armstrong does not in fact have an assignment or a paper. I simply asked if anyone knows of any sources that discuss this topic, that's it. There are similar ideas to this such as playing Hanon. Rachmaninoff said in his first year, all students had to play every Hanon exercise in every key at ridiculous tempi. I just wanted to know if there is any discussion about Bach specifically in the first year (or any year really). Is that so hard?

I'd expect everybody's opinions would be the similar if not the same to any text - that's not the point. But hey who knows, a source might even say Bach isn't important! Again, not the point. Just want to find a published source that discusses/addresses/mentions the topic. I'm not looking for sources that contradict opinions, or support! God.

There's that many GD posts here that talk about Bach in early years at least with beginners with the Bach minuets. It was required of me to learn a prelude and fugue in first year of tertiary studies but I didn't have to choose one of Bach's. I know a former pupil of Michelangeli who said that she could play all of Rachmaninoff's concertos but when she began studies with Michelangeli, he made her "start over" with Bach inventions. I have also read about the topic in the Etude magazine - I think it was - but can't find it again! Well all know the benefits of learning Bach, again, I'm just looking for a source that discusses it.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions then great, if not, you don't need to say anything. Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful. If it makes you feel better about yourself, well then I suppose it is helpful to somebody.

Thank you all for making my experience here with this community a very positive, fruitful and rewarding one. (Yes, you would be correct in assuming that was sarcasm)


Many of the teachers on this forum are professionals who usually get paid to give out information. We come on here to help one another when we can in spite of this fact. I would think one would be satisfied and happy with whatever information is given, and not sour and demanding. It certainly would give us motivation to assist you.

With this attitude and the one in the original post, I for one, do not feel inclined to help. Good luck in your research.


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#2146541 - 09/08/13 05:00 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
...My question doesn't even express an opinion..


Clearly entirely unbiased. Like the Fox network.


Having power is not nearly as important as what you choose to do with it.
– Roald Dahl

#2146554 - 09/08/13 05:28 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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I am hopeful that music can calm any and all beasts in the media. It's not their fault....they have to report 24/7....same stuff...how boring....though I have no problem practicing Bach and Chopin for years...and then some.

rada

thanks for everyone's input I always try to find something to learn.

#2146568 - 09/08/13 05:55 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: malkin]  
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
...My question doesn't even express an opinion..


Clearly entirely unbiased. Like the Fox network.


Oh, please. Please keep politically slanted issues out of this forum.
I come here to get away from politics and TV. Stay with piano-related discussion.
thanks.


Piano Teacher
#2146641 - 09/08/13 08:43 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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PianoStudent88 Online content
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Perhaps a less tendentious question to ask would be: are there any published materials about what to include in a conservatory or university piano major curriculum? Or is the curriculum planning all handed down by tradition and word of mouth?


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#2146667 - 09/08/13 10:13 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Barb860]  
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Originally Posted by Barb860
Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Steve Armstrong
...My question doesn't even express an opinion..


Clearly entirely unbiased. Like the Fox network.


Oh, please. Please keep politically slanted issues out of this forum.
I come here to get away from politics and TV. Stay with piano-related discussion.
thanks.

Yeesh. Does anyone honestly believe ANY tv network is "unbiased?" Sigh. (That's meant as a rhetorical question!)

#2146848 - 09/09/13 09:05 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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"...Mocking and making snide remarks isn't helpful..."

That is their greatness, Steve.

As for your original question: visiting a library may be helpful. Librarians are sometimes more kindly than piano teachers or university professors; anyway, they will know how to direct you to the resources.


Clef

#2146896 - 09/09/13 10:47 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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Wasn't it Chopin who used to warm up in the morning with a romp through some Bach WTC gems ... I take the dogs for a walk.

But then I drive a Ford.

#2146897 - 09/09/13 10:54 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: KurtZ]  
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Originally Posted by KurtZ
Why do they call them apartments when they're all attached to one another?


They look attached, but are built detache. You know, in the appropriate style.

#2146913 - 09/09/13 11:16 AM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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the funny thing is, is those sources are just links to other peoples opinions lol.

i guess you professional teachers aren't professional enough to use your opinions wink

Last edited by Sweet06; 09/09/13 11:17 AM.

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#2147149 - 09/09/13 06:13 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Sweet06]  
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Sweet06
the funny thing is, is those sources are just links to other peoples opinions lol.

i guess you professional teachers aren't professional enough to use your opinions wink
Exactly. laugh


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#2147158 - 09/09/13 06:28 PM Re: Why do higher ed. institutes teach Bach in first year(s)? [Re: Steve Armstrong]  
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books and articles are written by non bias robots that are programmed by aliens to only write truth based on robot instilled intelligence! lol ok i'm done laugh


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