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Var. 3 I don't need to use as much imagination here. Comparing the main theme with this variant (and the first) I once again see the first and third notes of the bar taking on more importance than others. Likewise the start and ends of phrases and phrase precedence. It's not unlike establishing importance from word order in a Latin sentence.
The more I look at this the more I see a formula emerging for improvisation. Take a simple theme, double the notes (var. 1), triple the notes (Var. 2), go into the minor key (Var. 3), cross hands (var. 4), slow down and quadruple the notes (Var. 5)...
Var. 3 The more I look at this the more I see a formula emerging for improvisation. Take a simple theme, double the notes (var. 1), triple the notes (Var. 2), go into the minor key (Var. 3), cross hands (var. 4), slow down and quadruple the notes (Var. 5)...
Sorry for delay in getting back to this. Just seeing this for the first time now as was preoccupied a bit since my last post and away on travels over the weekend. I will get caught up and see what else I may have to add to discussion with Var 4,5 & 6 ... uhmm ... soon (this work week for sure.)
Meanwhile, also working more on Chopin pieces (post Mendelssohn recording) and have a question about the Piu Lento of Op 64 No. 2.
Although, I think it is obvious what I need to do, I don't think I have come across it before. For example, at the end of M2 of this section, the LH is playing (bottom up) A Db F. The A is held over to the next beat though and I add a Db below it. Again, at the end of line one in M6 ... LH is playing B natural and a Gb above it. The B natural is held to the next beat where we add a Eb on the bottom.
So, I need to shift the fingering of my LH while holding these tagged notes without playing these notes again. Is this correct?
I am also preoccupied at present so delays are not a problem for me. I prefer the extra time in the thread to consider more appropriately what's been said and what to say.
For the waltz: in M66 I'd be using 4-2-1 for Ab-Db-F. Change to 3-2-1 for A-Db-F, last beat of M66, hold the A with 3rd finger, release the upper two notes and pivot your hand on the A while your 5th finger swings down to Db. Likewise in M70 on the B.
For the waltz: in M66 I'd be using 4-2-1 for Ab-Db-F. Change to 3-2-1 for A-Db-F, last beat of M66, hold the A with 3rd finger, release the upper two notes and pivot your hand on the A while your 5th finger swings down to Db. Likewise in M70 on the B.
Brilliant. It works great. I hadn't thought of that and better then trying to switch fingers on the same note as I had been. The trickiest part now is M72-M74 ... coming along fine though, with some careful finger planning.
Hopefully, I will get back to the Wolfgang analysis this weekend. I had to postpone again for some re-recording of Mendelssohn with some new gear.
The more I look at this the more I see a formula emerging for improvisation. Take a simple theme, double the notes (var. 1), triple the notes (Var. 2), go into the minor key (Var. 3), cross hands (var. 4), slow down and quadruple the notes (Var. 5)...
Var VI
This is the first meter change we've seen ... to common time.
It seems to me sort of like a brief summation of some key elements of previous Vars. It starts off more similar to the original theme than the other Vars so far, but different meter of course. Otherwise I don't think much new introduced that we haven't skirted around with previously in this movement. It sort of behaves then, like a recap. would. But it is not a recap. of course and not complete of aspects of all the Vars ... perhaps just highlights.
Also, there is an 8 bar coda added on to finish this movement.
Am I on track with any of this?
BTW, where'd everybody go? We started out with tons of enthusiasm on this new work -- as we often do -- but this has since petered off to once again just you and me, Richard.
Well, the variations are sort of the same thing over and over again with - um - variations. I didn't know what else to write about them. I analyzed a Beethoven sonata with variations recently. What you're doing now was a good stepping stone for that, because Beethoven goes much further afield with it.
Well, the variations are sort of the same thing over and over again with - um - variations. I didn't know what else to write about them.
We can always refer back to the variations if there is more to say. I think Richard covered it quite nicely, and I just added a bit of speculation around # VI that is open for debate.
Would you be willing to take a first crack at the Menuetto, KS? Personally I'm not all that crazy about this section. But really like the Alla turca.
We can always refer back to the variations if there is more to say. I think Richard covered it quite nicely, and I just added a bit of speculation around # VI that is open for debate.
Let me read that again.
Originally Posted by Greener
Would you be willing to take a first crack at the Menuetto, KS? Personally I'm not all that crazy about this section. But really like the Alla turca.
I'm in the middle of a big project the next couple of days, but I did this one a while back so I played it through and looked at my notes. I can do that much for now.
It's a Minuet and Trio. I've meant to look up/refresh my memory on the Trio part. Doesn't this become something else with later composers - scherzos?
I have a note written: Minuet - A :|| BA':|| Trio - C:||DC:|| (Minuet - A :|| BA':||) = rounded binary
Translation: The Minuet and Trio are both in rounded binary form (as minuets are) meaning that we have an A section which repeats, then a B section followed by a modified A which also repeats. The Trio has a different, softer atmosphere to it, and it is also in rounded binary form. We then go da capo back to the Minuet.
My notes say that the Minuet is in A major in the first part. Some interesting things seem to be happening at the start of the B section until it settles down to repeating the A section (rounded binary).
The Trio is also in rounded binary form. I have it starting in D major with a note about a "toggle" between E and A (E being the V of A) until it settles into an A7 to bring us back to the D of the start of the Trio for the first time round.
In the second portion we slip from that A chord, up a half step to a B7 which is sort of interesting and then I have "E minor" written down - then C major "morphing into A" which eventually brings us back to the theme of the beginning of the trio.
Something I found personally interesting since I'm learning about these things were the occasions of augmented sixths. For example, in m. 33 you have Bb D F# G#, which if you play it sounds like a Bb7 (Bb D F# Ab). Instead of resolving to Eb (which the Bb7 would do), this moves from Bb to A, as follows (reading vertically along the bass chords)
G# => A (hence it's G# and not Ab, as it would be in a Bb7) D => C# (down a half step) Bb => A
The E that we need for an A chord pops in at beat 2.
My synopsis of the variations wasn't intended to finish the analysis. There were difficulties in the Clementi sonatinas (and the Haydn) recognising musical ideas when they weren't repeated note for note. These variations offered an opportunity to compare measure by measure and see how they differ from the main theme and the other variations.
In comparing them there might be light thrown on what or where are the important features of a theme and/or its harmony and how much of its skeletal structure needs to be present to still be recognisable. ______________________________
Not sure if we covered this here or if I did it on RST as part of my Sunday Classical postings but the Trio was so called because the double (as it was known in Bach's suites) was given to a trio of instruments in Lully's orchestra (bassoon and oboes if memory serves). Lully's work with the Sun King's musician's pretty much established the make up of the orchestra up to today.
I keep wanting to get back and look at this and keep not getting to it. Sorry folks. I'll come zooming in sometime with a masterful analysis of variation 1 .
Rumor has it there is a movement developing to start again, or continue rather with this sonata analysis.
For those perhaps unfamiliar with this discussion, please come here for tremendous insight into the theory and structure of music. It has been of huge value to me, having had none. For you, it should at least be, beneficial.
Please, do get involved and ask anything on this thread. Well related of course, but nothing is to basic. I'm learning about scales
Ideas on continuing ... from where we are, or something anew?
People seem to like shorter threads, where there's a feeling of something new starting that you can get in on from the beginning. I know we say people can just jump in and not read the whole backthread, but people just don't feel comfortable doing that. So identifying a piece to analyze and making a thread just for it might draw in more participants.
I think it's clear that you all need to decide on one piece, and decide specifically what you'll be discussing about it, and stick with that. The conversation so far has been very disjointed, with everyone talking at once about different works, and although people may have learned some, it could be far more productive if there were more organization. And, of course, we don't need six different threads starting at once about different pieces, or, even worse, about the same piece.
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