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#2144554 - 09/05/13 09:55 AM Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65  
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vicente87 Offline
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Hi all,

My name is Vincent and I just can't make up my mind over which digital piano to buy.
I went to the store the other day to have a look at the CLP 470 when the store manager pointed out that the Kawai ca65 is also a very good piano in the same price range. I extensively tested both, but I still can't decide. I've played an accoustic piano all my life and to me the reproduction of that feeling and sound is the most important. Don't really care about a Thousand different instrument sounds.

My findings:
- Sound is a little more vivid in the CA65, but mainly just different, not perse better.
- It's harder to play pianissimo on the ca65 than on the clp470
- The touch is slightly better on the ca65
- The CLP 470 black looks better than the ca65 black
- In the store they were both priced at 2300 euros (while I found on the internet that usually the CLP470 is a little more expensive than the ca65)

Overall I'm having a really hard time deciding. I read a lot of posts where the CLP470 is compared to the preceding ca63 and where most of the time the ca63 is preferred. On the other hand, I also found some ca63 vs ca65 topics where it is usually said that the ca63 was better than the ca65. Therefore I now have no idea how the ca65 compares vs the clp470.

Please help

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#2144589 - 09/05/13 11:05 AM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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MacMacMac Offline
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Do you really care what other people think?
It will be YOUR piano, so only YOUR opinion matters! smile

#2144595 - 09/05/13 11:09 AM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: MacMacMac]  
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vicente87 Offline
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I totally agree, but in this case where both piano's are almost exactly in balance after extensive testing, I actually do care what other people think :p.

#2144627 - 09/05/13 12:30 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Based upon your findings(criteria) and their slight variations, determine the respective weights of importance you'd give those factors and go from there. For example, for me the feel was on the very top of my criteria because I grew up playing an acoustic grand piano and could never get myself to go digital because of the touch. When I tried the CA65, I knew it was the right digital for me. Lastly, if all else fails, gotta go with your gut after all the analytics leave you undecided.

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#2144641 - 09/05/13 12:49 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Quote
- It's harder to play pianissimo on the ca65 than on the clp470
- The touch is slightly better on the ca65


This would be the clincher for me but everybody is different.


Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D
#2144649 - 09/05/13 01:03 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: Vid]  
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Thanks Lizkey and Vid for the reactions. If I understand correctly you both think that based on my opening post and priorities the CA65 would suit me better?

#2144668 - 09/05/13 01:59 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Originally Posted by vicente87

On the other hand, I also found some ca63 vs ca65 topics where it is usually said that the ca63 was better than the ca65. 



Where did you read that ? I am quite surprised...


Yamaha NP-V80 (sold)
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Kawai CL-36
Pianoteq Standard + Intel NUC DC3217BY + Sennheiser HD598 + Fostex PM0.4n + NI Audio 2
#2144669 - 09/05/13 02:02 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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No, no- that is not what I "think" at all. Vincent, I have absolutely NO opinion what is best for YOU, because you've got to decide based on YOUR priorities. It was merely a simple suggestion for a possible way that might help in your decision making process that might be of some use if you currently are looking at it as a linear decision, which it isn't. I should never have offered my own decision based on how I weighed my criteria for touch - my "what" and "why" are irrelevant to your dilemma. However, you might try assigning some ranking of your priorities by employing something akin to a weighted criteria matrix. So, again, you've already identified your criteria, now rate them; then rate the two digitals against the criteria, and then multiply those determinations against the weightings. But, it doesn't so much come down to relying on math: don't forget, there's also your intuition if scores are too close. I'm sure you will be fine either way once you are playing the piano, whatever you decide. At that point, you'll be so happy playing, you won't even think to second guess your decision - or at least you shouldn't.
Enjoy playing once you decide. smile

#2144690 - 09/05/13 02:48 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: jarosujo]  
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Originally Posted by jarosujo
Originally Posted by vicente87

On the other hand, I also found some ca63 vs ca65 topics where it is usually said that the ca63 was better than the ca65. 



Where did you read that ? I am quite surprised...


I also found it surprising.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1947501/Kaiwa%20ca65%20Vs.%20ca63.html


#2144691 - 09/05/13 02:51 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: lizkey]  
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Originally Posted by lizkey
No, no- that is not what I "think" at all. Vincent, I have absolutely NO opinion what is best for YOU, because you've got to decide based on YOUR priorities. It was merely a simple suggestion for a possible way that might help in your decision making process that might be of some use if you currently are looking at it as a linear decision, which it isn't. I should never have offered my own decision based on how I weighed my criteria for touch - my "what" and "why" are irrelevant to your dilemma. However, you might try assigning some ranking of your priorities by employing something akin to a weighted criteria matrix. So, again, you've already identified your criteria, now rate them; then rate the two digitals against the criteria, and then multiply those determinations against the weightings. But, it doesn't so much come down to relying on math: don't forget, there's also your intuition if scores are too close. I'm sure you will be fine either way once you are playing the piano, whatever you decide. At that point, you'll be so happy playing, you won't even think to second guess your decision - or at least you shouldn't.
Enjoy playing once you decide. smile


I know what you meant, I just did the math already according to my priorities. I might have been more clear on that smile. Anyway thanks again for the great advice! Since you happen to own a ca65, how do you like it?

#2144709 - 09/05/13 03:40 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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I LOVE it. It gives me tremendous pleasure every day when I play it. I'm usually plugged into my headphones when I play and find the sound more than fine. It offers a great balance of qualities for my needs. It's always exciting getting a new piano -- Vincent, you'll do well with either piano, I'm sure since they are so close for you. Enjoy smile

#2144718 - 09/05/13 03:57 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Originally Posted by vicente87
On the other hand, I also found some ca63 vs ca65 topics where it is usually said that the ca63 was better than the ca65.


The CA65 is superior to the CA63 in every way.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2144750 - 09/05/13 04:56 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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The acid test would be to play a piece you know very well, preferably with eyes closed wink (so that you're concentrating entirely on the DP's responsiveness to your touch, as well as the sound), and using your own headphones as well as the DP's speakers, on each one, and think about which one you're more likely to still enjoy playing in a year's time.

Another feature which might be worth thinking about is that the Kawai's key action has simulated let-off/escapement 'feel', while the Yamaha's doesn't. Acoustic pianos all have it.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2144769 - 09/05/13 05:35 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
The acid test would be to play a piece you know very well, preferably with eyes closed wink (so that you're concentrating entirely on the DP's responsiveness to your touch, as well as the sound), and using your own headphones as well as the DP's speakers, on each one, and think about which one you're more likely to still enjoy playing in a year's time.

Another feature which might be worth thinking about is that the Kawai's key action has simulated let-off/escapement 'feel', while the Yamaha's doesn't. Acoustic pianos all have it.


Correction - not all acoustic pianos have the let-off/escapement feel. With a few exceptions its only grand pianos that have it.

Otherwise sound advice about comparing the two to figure out what you prefer. I find the escapement feature of the VPC1 action adds a lot to the overall experience.


Kawai VPC1, Pianoteq, Galaxy Vintage D
#2144777 - 09/05/13 05:44 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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I have already owned a Kawai CA95 and decided to trade it back in for the Clavinova CLP-480 mainly on account of the quality of the piano sounds which I found to be very clear and not nearly as metallic as the CA95. I find the piano sounds in the CLP-480 to be far more pleasing to the ear. The only feature you will not have in the CLP-470 is the simulated escapement (i.e., "let-off" - as Kawai terms it) although I do not miss it in the CLP-480 as far as playing goes. Unless you need to make specific use of playing "off the jack" (or, escapement point) this feature will not apply to you.

The weighted action is very nice in the CLP-480 and the 470 is basically the same although the CLP-480 has the better speaker system. I cannot compare the 470 to the CA95 since I only own the CLP-480. It would appear that the CLP-480 is the closer match to the CA95 in regards to the sound system. I therefore recommend the 480, instead.

Looks like you still would need to play and compare them yourself to make the final decision as for sounds and action. There is no way to determine this by reading reviews, only.

#2144838 - 09/05/13 07:24 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: Vid]  
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Originally Posted by Vid


Correction - not all acoustic pianos have the let-off/escapement feel. With a few exceptions its only grand pianos that have it.




All acoustic pianos - uprights or grands - have escapement, and the 'let-off' feel that means the key travel isn't completely smooth all the way down when you press the key down slowly.

If I remember correctly, last time I played the NU1 and N1 side by side, the 'notchy' sensation was even more obvious on the NU1 than on the N1. After which, the unnaturally smooth key action of the current CLP line seems to me somewhat......unnatural.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2144919 - 09/05/13 09:49 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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I would not say that the CA63 is better than the CA65; however, I prefer the action of the 63 over the 65 (I owned an MP10). The GF action is too light; to the extent of feeling "artificial" (Simone Dinnerstein). The RM3 action is not heavy per se; it simply feels more substantial. I also expected a huge improvement of the sampled piano; since KAWAI claims the sample is much larger, and even added some physical modeling. The sound, as many here have noticed, is extremely bright and in your face. The previous generation -whatevertheycallit- sounded warmer. Of course, the sound system plays a role in this regard, and the CA95 does sound better due to its soundboard system...... still, too bright. The coating on the keys is supposed to be exactly the same as the previous generation, yet it seemed somewhat different; the keys on my MP10 tended more towards off-white, whereas the keys on the CA63 seemed very white (this might've been due to the lighting at the dealer), still, it makes you wonder.

#2145034 - 09/06/13 01:03 AM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: bennevis]  
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Vid


Correction - not all acoustic pianos have the let-off/escapement feel. With a few exceptions its only grand pianos that have it.




All acoustic pianos - uprights or grands - have escapement, and the 'let-off' feel that means the key travel isn't completely smooth all the way down when you press the key down slowly.

If I remember correctly, last time I played the NU1 and N1 side by side, the 'notchy' sensation was even more obvious on the NU1 than on the N1. After which, the unnaturally smooth key action of the current CLP line seems to me somewhat unnatural.


Actually, Ben, a friend of mine has an upright he told me does not have let-off (it's an old Foerster upright IIRC). I wonder how the hammers work in that thing but I take his word on that. (On the other hand, an upright at his folks' he used to play in his childhood does have let-off.)

@OP: I was in your shoes about half a year ago and went with the Kawai in the end as I liked the key action and the sound much more than what Yamaha had to offer. They are both excellent DP's though.

Oh, and just for the record -- the black finish on the Yamaha is actually polished ebony, which is usually a fairly pricey extra (we are talking like 300 EUR or more). Kawai's CA pianos don't have this kind of finish, only the CS series pianos do.

Last edited by Clayman; 09/06/13 01:08 AM. Reason: Added a few bits

-- Zbynek N.

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Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
#2145035 - 09/06/13 01:08 AM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: Clayman]  
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Originally Posted by Clayman
the black finish on the Yamaha is actually polished ebony...


Not necessarily. The CLP-470 is available in Black Walnut and Polished Ebony.

Cheers,
James
x


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Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.
#2145041 - 09/06/13 01:16 AM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Hmm, you're right, James. The Black Walnut variant is probably new, I don't remember seeing it when I was shopping around.

Thanks for the correction. smile


-- Zbynek N.

Learning to play the piano since 06/2013 on a Kawai CA-95.

Music is what feelings sound like. ~ Author Unknown
#2241465 - 03/04/14 08:13 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: Clayman]  
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Guys, only Grands have the escapement. Does nobody here play the real thing? Escapement lets you play a note after you have already played it without lifting the key all the way back up. Try it!!! Can't do it on a vertical but can on a grand.

#2241479 - 03/04/14 08:41 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: tnsettlemo]  
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Originally Posted by tnsettlemo
Guys, only Grands have the escapement. Does nobody here play the real thing? Escapement lets you play a note after you have already played it without lifting the key all the way back up. Try it!!! Can't do it on a vertical but can on a grand.


False. You are referring to the "double" escapement. All acoustics have "escapement," which means the hammers disconnect from the key so that they fall away from the string even if you hold the key down.

Also I don't like your tone.

Edit: Bennevis beat me to it. Did you not read his comment?

Last edited by gvfarns; 03/04/14 08:54 PM.
#2241747 - 03/05/14 03:25 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Hi vincente87,
I do not know what is experience with the real thing, but:
- on real piano (epecially grands) it is hard to play pp - what I mean, is that you need to have a really good controls over your hands and fingers to play real ppp. Do you know what is silent playing, or silent keys, sorry, do not know the english name for it

- Clavinovas has almost no sustain on the medium and soft (or whatever they are called). Only on bright, the sustain in trebles is ok. But then - all the piano sound too bright and to harsh. For me Yamahas are completely unbalanced in terms of sound. I like the NW keyboard though, it is really good (as opposite to GHS which is heavy muddy and opther sort of these things). Rolands beats them in term of sound, even the clp480 which is dunno why 2 time price of 470 just for a few speakers? I was playing in 480... not impressed at all.
Would take it for free, never would be able to love it.

Try also HP 506.
I do not have personal experience with Kawai,but have with all sort of Rolands and Yamahas, and I find the Yamahas the worst choice.
Also - the display in the 3k$ instrument is exatly the same as in the CLP series 10 years ago. Its a shame and a bit disrespect for the customers and their expectations. This also is telling me - do not buy yamaha. You will not be able to change anything without instruction with your hand. I hate this, while Roland can make beautiful screens since 8 years of even more.

#2241871 - 03/05/14 07:31 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: vicente87]  
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Originally Posted by vicente87
- It's harder to play pianissimo on the ca65 than on the clp470

My experience ist just the opposite, the CA63/93/65/95 are excellent for pianissimo playing. Did someone in the store perhaps muck around with the 'Virtual Technician' settings of the floor demo unit? Make sure that the lower threshold is at the default setting or adjust it to a lower/lowest setting and see whether you like it better.


I am 'doremi' because I play scales smile
Had I progressed to playing chords,
I would be 'domisol' shocked
#2259949 - 04/10/14 06:51 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: gvfarns]  
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Sorry, just feeling smart, but not so much anymore.

#2259957 - 04/10/14 07:14 PM Re: Can't decide between Yamaha CLP 470 and Kawai CA65 [Re: gvfarns]  
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Originally Posted by gvfarns
Originally Posted by tnsettlemo
Guys, only Grands have the escapement. Does nobody here play the real thing? Escapement lets you play a note after you have already played it without lifting the key all the way back up. Try it!!! Can't do it on a vertical but can on a grand.


False. You are referring to the "double" escapement. All acoustics have "escapement," which means the hammers disconnect from the key so that they fall away from the string even if you hold the key down.

Also I don't like your tone.

Edit: Bennevis beat me to it. Did you not read his comment?
Sorry, feeling smart, but not so much now!


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