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Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2140988
08/29/13 09:55 PM
08/29/13 09:55 PM
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Valencia Offline OP
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Thanks timmyab. smile Maybe I need to add a separate heading of "Advanced-Intermediate"? Then I could group some of the more challenging ones in that group. Maybe that is getting too fancy, but it just seems that there is a big difference between pieces like the Moonlight 3rd mvt and stuff like Appassionata. Or maybe there isn't as much as I think. Is the moonlight 3rd mvt comparable to the other ones I've listed with it below?


Intermediate:

Sonata Op.49, No.1
Sonata Op.49, No.2

Sonata 1, Op. 2, No. 1: 1st mvt
Sonata 1, Op. 2, No. 1: 2nd mvt
Sonata 1, Op. 2, No. 1: 3rd mvt

Sonata 3, Op.2, No.3, 2nd mvt
Sonata 3, Op.2, No.3, 3rd mvt

Sonata 6, Op.10, No.2 Allegretto

Sonata 8, Op. 13 in C Minor (Pathetique): 2nd Mvt

Sonata 9, Op. 14 No.1

Sonata 10, Op.14 No.2 1st mvt
Sonata 10, Op.14, No.2 2nd mvt

Sonata 12 , Op.26 Marcia Funebre

Sonata 13, Op. 27, No. 1 (Fantasia)-2nd mvt

Sonata 14, Op. 27, No.2 in C # minor (Moonlight): 1st mvt
Sonata 14, Op. 27, No.2 in C # minor (Moonlight): 2nd mvt

Sonata 25, Op. 79 , 2nd mvt - Andante


Advanced-Intermediate


Sonata 1, Op. 2, No. 1: 4th mvt (challenging tempowise!)

Sonata 10 Op.14 No.2 3rd mvt (poly-rhythmic sections and other difficulties)

Sonata 8, Op. 13 in C Minor (Pathetique): 3rd Mvt (challenging)

Sonata 14, Op. 27, No.2 in C # minor (Moonlight): 3rd mvt ??(may be a challenge)

Sonata 24, Op.78, 1st mvt.

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Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2141011
08/29/13 10:45 PM
08/29/13 10:45 PM
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timmyab Offline
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Well it gets subjective I suppose but I would put it in exactly the same league as the Appassionata.The difference is that op57 has two tough movements and op27 no2 has one.

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2141804
08/31/13 12:22 PM
08/31/13 12:22 PM
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Op. 2 No. 1, 4th movement, is not Advanced-Intermediate. It is marked Prestissimo but the fastest notes are triplets, which makes it little more than allegro for semiquavers. Play the first few bars. They're simple arpeggio patterns requiring hand flexibility more than actual velocity.

Fast passages make a piece harder but extra practise, slowly and accurately, is all that's needed to make the difference.

The general consensus is that Op. 2/1, Op. 14 1 & 2, Op. 49 1 & 2 and Op. 79 are intermediate or lower.

The bulk of the sonatas up to Op. 22 are achievable for a late intermediate. Some of the individual movements are Advanced (e.g. 10/3 Presto, 13 Allegro di molto and the outer movements of Eb, Op. 7).

Most of the Sonatas up to Op. 78 are Advanced, with the named ones (Waldstein, Appassionata more so than the others) and movements like 27/2 Presto (a rare tempo for Beethoven) and the 31/3 Presto con fuoco peaking over their surroundings.

Those from Les Adieu, Op. 81a to Op. 111 are Very Advanced and the last five in particular push piano technique beyond the comfortable reach of most amateurs and many professionals.

None of the advanced sonatas are a short term study. For me it's all down to how hard and how long I'm prepared to practise them in order to have them in my fingers and that means loving them not picking them based on their accessibility. I would spend time listening until I found one that suits my style, my technical ability and that is sufficiently appealing then go for it and allow myself time to enjoy it before I start looking for my next one.



Richard
Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2142137
09/01/13 06:35 AM
09/01/13 06:35 AM
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Technical difficulty is quite subjective. Personally I don't find the early sonatas particularly easy. Op 2 no 2, for instance is extremely challenging, much more difficult than e.g. Op 90. The last movement of Op 90 should perhaps be included in the list of movements accessible to intermediate players. Even Op 31 no 2 (the Tempest) is probably easier than Op 2 no 2.

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2142497
09/01/13 09:08 PM
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Valencia Offline OP
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timmyab –speaking of appassionata, what about adding the second movement to this list?

Ganddalf- Thanks for pointing out Op.90—a beautiful piece!

Thanks for this Richard…I added in the rest of the movements for Op.79 (the 1st and 3rd). You raise a good point about accessibility not necessarily being the most important thing when choosing a piece to invest significant time on. Exploring these sonatas has been fun and I’ve found several single movements that I might be able to learn in less time (as in a few months-like Op. 79 Andante and perhaps Op.2 No.1 1st mvt). For investing significant time….the 3rd mvt of the moonlight sonata has been a favorite…it would be great fun to be able to play it. I think the other two movements are within my reach, but the 3rd would require significant time.

One day I’d really like to be able to play the 1st mvt of the appassionata too (obviously not on this list....so possibly impossible). But that will have to wait. smile

Revised List:

Intermediate:


Sonata 1 in F minor, Op. 2, No. 1
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Adagio
3rd mvt-Menuetto
4th mvt-Prestissimo (challenging tempowise!)

Sonata 3 in C major, Op.2, No.3
2nd mvt-Adagio
3rd mvt-Scherzo:Allegro

Sonata 6 in F major, Op.10, No.2
2nd mvt-Allegretto

Sonata 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
2nd mvt-Adagio cantabile

Sonata 9 in E major, Op. 14 No.1
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Allegretto
3rd mvt-Rondo-Allegro comodo

Sonata 10 in G major, Op.14 No.2
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Andante

Sonata 12 in A-flat major, Op.26

3rd mvt-Maestoso andante, marcia funebre sulla morte d’un eroe

Sonata 13 in E-flat major, Op. 27, No. 1 (Quasi una Fantasia)
2nd mvt-Allegro molto e vivace

Sonata 14 in C # minor, Op. 27, No.2 (Moonlight)
1st mvt-Adagio sostenuto
2nd mvt-Allegretto

Sonata 19, Op.49, No.1 in G minor
1st mvt-Andante
2nd mvt-Rondo:Allegro

Sonata 20, Op.49, No.2 in G major
1st mvt-Allegro ma non troppo
2nd mvt-Tempo di Menuetto

Sonata 23, Op. 57 in F minor (Appassionata)
2nd mvt-Andante con moto

Sonata 25 in G major, Op. 79
1st mvt-Presto alla te desca
2nd mvt - Andante
3rd mvt-Vivace

Sonata 27, Op. 90 in E minor
2nd mvt -Nicht zu geschwind und sehr singbar vorgetragen



Late-Intermediate

Sonata 10 in G major, Op.14 No.2
3rd mvt-Scherzo: Allegro assai (poly-rhythmic sections and other difficulties)

Sonata 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
3rd mvt-Rondo: Allegro

Sonata 14 in C # minor, Op. 27, No.2 (Moonlight)
3rd mvt –Presto agitato (may be a challenge)

Sonata 24 in F-sharp major, Op.78
1st mvt- Adagio cantabile - Allegro ma non troppo





Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2142514
09/01/13 09:54 PM
09/01/13 09:54 PM
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timmyab Offline
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Originally Posted by Valencia
timmyab –speaking of appassionata, what about adding the second movement to this list?

I don't really feel qualified to make a judgement on it to be honest.At a guess I'd say it's probably borderline.
I notice you've still got the presto agitato from op27 no2 on the list.I would cross it off, it's really well into advanced territory I think.


Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2143074
09/02/13 08:33 PM
09/02/13 08:33 PM
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Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2143603
09/03/13 07:16 PM
09/03/13 07:16 PM
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Valencia Offline OP
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timmyab –ah yes, i'm losing track of pieces with all the opus numbers flying around. I'll take that one off the list.

Sam S-Great find! smile Thanks for posting these links. Looking through the listings from those books there are some that are still not on the list here so I will add them:

Op.10 No.1 1st mvt-Allegro molto con brio; 2nd mvt-Adagio molto

Op. 10 No. 3 3rd mvt-Menuetto-Allegro

Op. 22 3rd mvt-Menuetto

Op. 31, No.3 (don't know which movements so took a guess and left off the 4th-presto con fuoco)


Updated List:

Intermediate:

Sonata 1 in F minor, Op. 2, No. 1
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Adagio
3rd mvt-Menuetto
4th mvt-Prestissimo (challenging tempowise!)

Sonata 3 in C major, Op.2, No.3
2nd mvt-Adagio
3rd mvt-Scherzo:Allegro

Sonata 5 in C minor, Op.10 No. 1
1st mvt-Allegro molto conbrio
2nd mvt-Adagio molto

Sonata 6 in F major, Op.10, No.2
2nd mvt-Allegretto

Sonata 7 in D major, Op. 10 No. 3
3rd mvt-Menuetto-Allegro

Sonata 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
2nd mvt-Adagio cantabile

Sonata 9 in E major, Op. 14 No.1
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Allegretto
3rd mvt-Rondo-Allegro comodo

Sonata 10 in G major, Op.14 No.2
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Andante

Sonata 11 in B-flat major, Op. 22
3rd mvt-Menuetto

Sonata 12 in A-flat major, Op.26
3rd mvt-Maestoso andante, marcia funebre sulla morte d’un eroe

Sonata 13 in E-flat major, Op. 27, No. 1 (Quasi una Fantasia)
2nd mvt-Allegro molto e vivace

Sonata 14 in C # minor, Op. 27, No.2 (Moonlight)
1st mvt-Adagio sostenuto
2nd mvt-Allegretto

Sonata 19, Op.49, No.1 in G minor
1st mvt-Andante
2nd mvt-Rondo:Allegro

Sonata 20, Op.49, No.2 in G major
1st mvt-Allegro ma non troppo
2nd mvt-Tempo di Menuetto

Sonata 23, Op. 57 in F minor (Appassionata)
2nd mvt-Andante con moto

Sonata 25 in G major, Op. 79
1st mvt-Presto alla te desca
2nd mvt - Andante
3rd mvt-Vivace

Sonata 27, Op. 90 in E minor
2nd mvt -Nicht zu geschwind und sehr singbar vorgetragen

Sonata 18 in E-flat major, Op. 31, No.3
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Scherzo
3rd mvt-Menuetto


Late-Intermediate

Sonata 10 in G major, Op.14 No.2
3rd mvt-Scherzo: Allegro assai (poly-rhythmic sections and other difficulties)

Sonata 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
3rd mvt-Rondo: Allegro

Sonata 24 in F-sharp major, Op.78
1st mvt- Adagio cantabile - Allegro ma non troppo



]

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2143656
09/03/13 08:36 PM
09/03/13 08:36 PM
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timmyab Offline
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Sorry to pour more cold water over this again but op 31 no 3 is a pretty tough sonata.The Scherzo in particular is extremely technical.The menuetto would qualify though I think.

There's a couple more to consider.
The Introduzione from the Waldstein is pretty simple.Although it's not really designed to be played on it's own, it is a separate movement.
Also the Absence from op 81a is probably intermediate I would think.

Sometimes the way that people talk about the Beethoven sonatas can be misleading.When they say that a particular sonata is easy or difficult, it's mostly relatively speaking.Nearly all of them are somewhere between difficult and ridiculous.

Last edited by timmyab; 09/03/13 10:13 PM.
Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: timmyab] #2143861
09/04/13 05:33 AM
09/04/13 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by timmyab


Sometimes the way that people talk about the Beethoven sonatas can be misleading.When they say that a particular sonata is easy or difficult, it's mostly relatively speaking.Nearly all of them are somewhere between difficult and ridiculous.


It's taken me weeks to get 49/1 1st mvt close to playable, and that is one of the "easy" sonatas. The turns in the right hand and the Alberti bass are my nemesis. And the sonata, to me, now sounds more like Mozart than Beethoven...

Sam

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Sam S] #2143881
09/04/13 06:59 AM
09/04/13 06:59 AM
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timmyab Offline
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Just wait until you get to the second movement, it's enough to make you want to weep.I think it was that movement that convinced me that I'm an idiot.

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2145583
09/07/13 03:02 AM
09/07/13 03:02 AM
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Op.49/2 was the first sonata my teacher had me practice. But I ended up playing Bach's 2 part inventions which actually seem harder with their counterpoint.


Monk - Boo Boo's Birthday
Bach - Two Part Invention No.11
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Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2145791
09/07/13 01:38 PM
09/07/13 01:38 PM
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Valencia Offline OP
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timmyab –thanks for these other suggestions. i'll update the list! no worries about cold water, it's appreciated. smile

Ken-thanks for sharing your experiences with op. 49/2. I haven't tried any of the Bach Inventions. Do you think they are good preparation for learning some of the beethoven sonatas?



Updated List:

Intermediate:

Sonata 1 in F minor, Op. 2, No. 1
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Adagio
3rd mvt-Menuetto
4th mvt-Prestissimo (challenging tempowise!)

Sonata 3 in C major, Op.2, No.3
2nd mvt-Adagio
3rd mvt-Scherzo:Allegro

Sonata 5 in C minor, Op.10 No. 1
1st mvt-Allegro molto conbrio
2nd mvt-Adagio molto

Sonata 6 in F major, Op.10, No.2
2nd mvt-Allegretto

Sonata 7 in D major, Op. 10 No. 3
3rd mvt-Menuetto-Allegro

Sonata 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
2nd mvt-Adagio cantabile

Sonata 9 in E major, Op. 14 No.1
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Allegretto
3rd mvt-Rondo-Allegro comodo

Sonata 10 in G major, Op.14 No.2
1st mvt-Allegro
2nd mvt-Andante

Sonata 11 in B-flat major, Op. 22
3rd mvt-Menuetto

Sonata 12 in A-flat major, Op.26
3rd mvt-Maestoso andante, marcia funebre sulla morte d’un eroe

Sonata 13 in E-flat major, Op. 27, No. 1 (Quasi una Fantasia)
2nd mvt-Allegro molto e vivace

Sonata 14 in C # minor, Op. 27, No.2 (Moonlight)
1st mvt-Adagio sostenuto
2nd mvt-Allegretto

Sonata 19 in G minor, Op.49, No.1
1st mvt-Andante
2nd mvt-Rondo:Allegro

Sonata 20 in G major Op.49, No.2
1st mvt-Allegro ma non troppo
2nd mvt-Tempo di Menuetto

Sonata 21 in C major, Op. 53 (Waldstein)
2nd mvt-Introduzione:Adagio motto-attacca

Sonata 23 in F minor, Op.57 (Appassionata)
2nd mvt-Andante con moto

Sonata 25 in G major, Op. 79
1st mvt-Presto alla te desca
2nd mvt - Andante
3rd mvt-Vivace

Sonata 26 in E-flat major, Op. 81a (Les Adieux)
2nd mvt-L'Absence: Andante expressivo

Sonata 27, Op. 90 in E minor
2nd mvt -Nicht zu geschwind und sehr singbar vorgetragen

Sonata 18 in E-flat major, Op. 31, No.3
3rd mvt-Menuetto


Late-Intermediate

Sonata 10 in G major, Op.14 No.2
3rd mvt-Scherzo: Allegro assai (poly-rhythmic sections and other difficulties)

Sonata 8 in C minor, Op. 13 (Pathetique)
3rd mvt-Rondo: Allegro

Sonata 24 in F-sharp major, Op.78
1st mvt- Adagio cantabile - Allegro ma non troppo


Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2147117
09/09/13 05:53 PM
09/09/13 05:53 PM
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Hi Valencia. I'm sure 49/2 would be a good preparation for the harder beethoven sonatas.

My teacher told me it was a popular one for children to start playing the sonatas.


Monk - Boo Boo's Birthday
Bach - Two Part Invention No.11
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Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2148573
09/12/13 02:43 AM
09/12/13 02:43 AM
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Ganddalf Offline
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What about a "Beethoven sonata" project? Maybe a bit less formal than the themed recitals.

Pesonally I'm planning to learn the whole Op.22. If I just start working on this without any deadline or planning to play it on a recital or make a recordng, I'll probably give up half-way. I have found these e-citals quite helpful in structuring my piano practice, and this is the reason why I make this suggestion.

I don't expect many ABFers to take on a whole Beethoven sonata. But some will perhaps try one or two movements.

Is anyone interested in this? Deadline maybe 6 months from now????

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Ganddalf] #2148603
09/12/13 05:27 AM
09/12/13 05:27 AM
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Sam S Offline

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Originally Posted by Ganddalf
What about a "Beethoven sonata" project? Maybe a bit less formal than the themed recitals.

Pesonally I'm planning to learn the whole Op.22. If I just start working on this without any deadline or planning to play it on a recital or make a recordng, I'll probably give up half-way. I have found these e-citals quite helpful in structuring my piano practice, and this is the reason why I make this suggestion.

I don't expect many ABFers to take on a whole Beethoven sonata. But some will perhaps try one or two movements.

Is anyone interested in this? Deadline maybe 6 months from now????


This might work if we allow duplicates - and be prepared to hear multiple performances of the Moonlight.

I'm working on 49/1 1st movement. Should be ready in 6 months smile

Sam

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2148612
09/12/13 06:02 AM
09/12/13 06:02 AM
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timmyab Offline
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I'd probably have a go at something.Maybe a movement from one of the late sonatas.

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2148621
09/12/13 07:23 AM
09/12/13 07:23 AM
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WiseBuff Online content
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Might need more than 6 months but I'm working on 14#1...maybe 1 1/2 movements. Should be a fun challenge.


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Buff as in Colorado Buffalo
Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2148644
09/12/13 08:20 AM
09/12/13 08:20 AM
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Ganddalf Offline
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Six months was just a suggestion. And why not allow duplicates? Selcting pieces that are not so frequently played should be encouraged, however. There are many pearls among the "intermediate" movements listed.
I'm also thinking that it should be up to each participant to choose if he/she wants to make a video or just a sound recording.

Re: Beethoven Sonatas-mvts accessible to intermediate players [Re: Valencia] #2149034
09/12/13 08:41 PM
09/12/13 08:41 PM
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Valencia Offline OP
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Sounds like fun! hmmm..what piece would I learn? I've already started practicing the 3rd mvt of moonlight but I'm sure I can't learn it in 6 mo time (if at all). Might have to choose another piece to try to learn for something like this...

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by abrogard. 03/23/19 08:01 PM
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