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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2151882 09/17/13 04:03 AM
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A lot of marketing speak. Could mean anything (or nothing). Only hard facts and specifications speak. "We greatly expanded waveform data..." , give us some hard facts , like from 256MB to 2GB for the acoustic piano alone, and it means something.

By the way, does anybody know if the CP4 will feature sympathetic string resonance ? According to someone in another thread there is none of such thing on the previous CP1 and CP5 piano's. I hope the CP features all the added resonance effects you currently find in most DP's, apart from the greatly expanded waveform memory ;-)

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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: JFP] #2151981 09/17/13 08:19 AM
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I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


Rhodes MkII Stage 73, Roland RD700NX
Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152044 09/17/13 09:49 AM
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I personally believe that sampling technology has reached its limits. Adding more layers, velocities etc... does not eliminate the fact that we are listening at pre-recorded material from a given instrument at a given time. The static perspective will always be present in sampled pianos because it is based on a static, pre-recorded snap-shot of a piano. I was convinced of this when I played the CA95. Based on the specs, Kawai more than doubled the sample data in comparison to their previous sample set (CA93, MP10 etc.), yet it still runs short when compared to Pianoteq 4.5 (specially the Bluthner)). It's not just the decay, but also the fact that the dynamic range of all the sampled pianos I've played -including Ivory American concert D- seems somewhat unnatural. Yes, you can play soft/loud and in between; however, the transitions between these dynamics are.... should I say it? static. "We greatly expanded waveform data" means we will continue adding a few layers/velocities every few years; even though we are aware of the fact that problem lies in the technology (sampling), and not in its implementation.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152054 09/17/13 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


The CP4 allows you to adjust the tine strike position for the EPs, but the hammer hardness parameter is not available. There is the same mic preamp modeling with the same parameters as was available on the CP5 and CP1. The CP1,5 , and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.

Last edited by Athan Billias; 09/17/13 09:58 AM.

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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152057 09/17/13 10:02 AM
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When might the first user reviews trickle in?

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152082 09/17/13 10:30 AM
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One thing that may be of interest is the additional manual named the "Synthesizer Parameter Manual." I'm not sure how many of these parameters can be applied to the piano voices, or if one can somehow access the piano samples for manipulation using these parameters. (Such as detailed multistage amp, filter, and pitch envelopes.)

http://download.yamaha.com/search/p...category_id=16365&product_id=1816953

Hmm....

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 09/17/13 10:39 AM.
Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Athan Billias] #2152103 09/17/13 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


The CP4 allows you to adjust the tine strike position for the EPs, but the hammer hardness parameter is not available. There is the same mic preamp modeling with the same parameters as was available on the CP5 and CP1. The CP1,5 , and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.

Thanks Athan for the reply and info. It's a shame that the CP4 omits some of the parameter adjustments that were available on the CP5 especially the hammer hardness for the AP's. However I'm glad that you guys didn't dump the striking position for the EP's as I find that parameter useful especially when I want to "voice" my Rhodes sounds. The string resonance insert effect (key harmonic overtones), I take is in addition to the damper resonance?


Rhodes MkII Stage 73, Roland RD700NX
Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152128 09/17/13 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Rhodie73
Originally Posted by Athan Billias
Originally Posted by Rhodie73
I hope Athan can chime in on a couple of things about the CP4. I see in the brochure that Yamaha talks about users being able to adjust the hammer hardness and striking position on the acoustic pianos. I checked all the available manuals online at the Yamaha site and only see strike position parameters and they only seem to refer to the electric pianos.

Athan does the CP4 let you adjust the hammer hardness and striking position for both the acoustic pianos and vintage electric pianos? I also see no parameter mention about the mic modeling. Oh and as JFP asked is sympathetic resonance available on the CP4?


The CP4 allows you to adjust the tine strike position for the EPs, but the hammer hardness parameter is not available. There is the same mic preamp modeling with the same parameters as was available on the CP5 and CP1. The CP1,5 , and the new CP4/40 all feature string resonance as an insert effect.

Thanks Athan for the reply and info. It's a shame that the CP4 omits some of the parameter adjustments that were available on the CP5 especially the hammer hardness for the AP's. However I'm glad that you guys didn't dump the striking position for the EP's as I find that parameter useful especially when I want to "voice" my Rhodes sounds. The string resonance insert effect (key harmonic overtones), I take is in addition to the damper resonance?



Its a shame about the hammer hardness. It's possible that the hammer hardness setting in the CP5 is a velocity range setting: Choosing "Hard hammers" may just set the ff samples to a lower velocity range. (Just as "Brightness" simply controls the LP filter cutoff freq.) Page 7 of the Synth Parameters Manual discusses setting velocity response, but that seems to be for an entire voice--an entire multisample. There does not seem to be a way to control the relative velocity response of each layer within the multisample. But I'm not absolutely sure: That page uses the term "Element" instead of "Voice."

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 09/17/13 11:28 AM.
Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152255 09/17/13 02:24 PM
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Can we all try to keep a lid on this "best stage piano Yamaha's ever made" nonsense. This just can't be true. The CP1 has a light-up Yamaha name/logo on the front. Okay? It LIGHTS UP! - In three different levels actually. IT ACTUALLY LIGHTS UP, people. So please, let's bear this in mind, know what I'm saying? The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP. The CP4 is merely a toy.


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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: EssBrace] #2152278 09/17/13 02:56 PM
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Off topic:
Originally Posted by EssBrace
The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP.

But, but, the ~$25 the end user pays for the Lite-Brite CP1 logo could have instead gone towards an extra 1MB or so of solid platinum sample ROM which DP manufacturers are forced to use at gunpoint. Hmm, given those metrics perhaps the logo is worth it after all.

On topic:
I wonder if the removal of the hammer hardness adjustment made room for a larger base sample set?

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152288 09/17/13 03:17 PM
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Looking further into the Synth Parameters Manual has not led to full enlightenment. An Element is one of the things that makes up a Voice. An Element can be many things, including an Oscillator. My guess is that the Oscillator is the entire multisample, with which other Elements, such as the Effects, are combined to form a Voice. This terminology risks causing some confusion, however, for in the Data List document, a Voice is listed as the essential instrument, to which effects are then applied. I'm a little confused, and the instrument has yet to be released. But it looks good.

Last edited by Jake Jackson; 09/17/13 03:18 PM.
Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: EssBrace] #2152403 09/17/13 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Can we all try to keep a lid on this "best stage piano Yamaha's ever made" nonsense. This just can't be true. The CP1 has a light-up Yamaha name/logo on the front. Okay? It LIGHTS UP! - In three different levels actually. IT ACTUALLY LIGHTS UP, people. So please, let's bear this in mind, know what I'm saying? The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP. The CP4 is merely a toy.


Don't forget the brushed aluminum volume knob. That definitely gives it an edge over the CP4.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Pete14] #2152406 09/17/13 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Can we all try to keep a lid on this "best stage piano Yamaha's ever made" nonsense. This just can't be true. The CP1 has a light-up Yamaha name/logo on the front. Okay? It LIGHTS UP! - In three different levels actually. IT ACTUALLY LIGHTS UP, people. So please, let's bear this in mind, know what I'm saying? The CP1 is the best. IT LIGHTS UP. The CP4 is merely a toy.


Don't forget the brushed aluminum volume knob. That definitely gives it an edge over the CP4.


Crikey, yes. One of the best knobs I've ever handled I can tell you that. Just so tactile.


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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152411 09/17/13 06:42 PM
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I'm curious; do the keys also light up, or is it just the logo?

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Athan Billias] #2152421 09/17/13 06:50 PM
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Athan, regarding the keyboard action:

Originally Posted by Athan Billias
We confirmed that the CP4 is a GH3 action with synthetic ivory keytops which is the same as that found on the CLP-470 and CVP509.


Does this mean that the CP4 also inherits the '88-key Linear Graded Hammers' feature of the CLP-470, whereby each key has a unique weight?

Also, may I please ask you to clarify if 'NW-GH' is a 3-sensor action, or the older 2-sensor GH action. There appears to be a degree of confusion over exactly what kind action the CP4 is using, so I believe any additional information would be useful.

Cheers,
James
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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Kawai James] #2152661 09/17/13 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Athan, regarding the keyboard action ...

James, it's rather eerie seeing you on the receiving end of this crazy game. Are you really interested in the response, or are you just trying to walk a mile in our shoes? wink

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Rhodie73] #2152668 09/17/13 11:49 PM
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I am genuinely interested in the answer (both on a personal and professional level), otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.

However, I'll admit that it's also rather enjoyable refreshing being able to quiz a senior member of Yamaha's marketing department directly on features and specifications.

James
x



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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Pete14] #2152684 09/18/13 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
I'm curious; do the keys also light up, or is it just the logo?

There are allegedly some high-end Casio keyboards where both keys and logo light up cool


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Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: Kawai James] #2152749 09/18/13 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
I am genuinely interested in the answer (both on a personal and professional level), otherwise I wouldn't have asked the question.

However, I'll admit that it's also rather enjoyable refreshing being able to quiz a senior member of Yamaha's marketing department directly on features and specifications.

James
x



We'll , if it is indeed a modern GH action with 3 sensors, I bet that you'll receive your answer somewhere soon. If the question remains to be ignored, it's probably a 2 sensor action; why hide the truth is there is nothing to hide ;-)

On the linear grading; that would be nice, but I don't really expect that on a Stage piano. Not really necessary, but a nice feature of the CP series anyway.

Re: Spectral Component Modeling [Re: JFP] #2152751 09/18/13 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JFP
On the linear grading; that would be nice, but I don't really expect that on a Stage piano. Not really necessary, but a nice feature of the CP series anyway.


I agree, it's not really necessary on a stage board intended for portability. However, previous noted that the CP4 action was the same as the CLP-470 action, so I'm attempting to understand to what extent this is indeed the case.

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
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