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The player at my jazz camp favors leading into a chord with the diminished chord a half step below (in any inversion, of course). What diminished chords does Harris suggest using to lead into another chord? Or is this the wrong question?

I think it's the same concept. It turns out to start on an inversion starting from the 7 of the scale. So it would be half step below the tonic. But there's only one note not in the scale (b6/#5).

Here's a little controversy.

Should you practice jazz with a Metronome?

Mike Longo's answer: NO.

http://www.mikelongojazz.com/should-you-practice-jazz-with-a-metronome/

Lennie had us use the metronome all the time)2+4 is cool, it's like playing with the worst jazz drummer in the world.

DF

jazzwee: Your statement about using the diminished chord on the 7th note of the scale of the target chord lines up with what I was told for a major seventh chord. But what about a minor 7th. If the target chord is c minor, does Harris recommend the diminished 7th starting on Bb?

As for a metronome, I ask this question: how do you get rid of bad habits like rushing? I have found that playing with a metronome is great for getting me to keep a uniform tempo. When I play montuno's, for example, it is very difficult to play them accurately so that they line up with all the other instruments and the clave. A metronome is great for that. Maybe I would modify Longo's comment, which seems geared at someone on a professional track, to say that a metronome is good for development basic skills, but at some point you've got to throw it away and learn to play with an inner pulse.

jjo, if you think about it, it's the same as for a minor chord. If the chord is Cm7, the diminished Bdim is what you use, of which one of the inversions also hit the Ab. This really means taking a second look at minor chords again because the two notes which can be used for leading are the Ab and the B (#5 and 7).

Although obvious passing tones in bebop, what is interesting is when it used as a diminished triad with the intention of leading to the tonic tonality. I may have used it before as passing tones but not in the context of lines moving harmony. So it offers a different look at things.

Now I found this most interesting on the tonic chord mostly. On the ii-V's, there's probably many more alternative ideas on moving harmony. My opinion. For example, on a G7, it really offers only b9 and so you have to think about many other possibilities on alterations.

I think that's exactly what Longo said. Although he claimed he knew how to feel the beat by 4 years of age so he didn't look at needing long term metronome practice. In my experience though, it takes a lot longer than a year to learn to control muscles to move exactly and evenly. So I think he overstates that part.

Presumably once you can maintain evenness then it's a matter of pulse. Now that I've begun to conquer rushing, I've realized that it's really about focusing on the listening to the rest of the band. It takes awhile to get to the point where chords, blowing, subs, etc. go in the background and the mind can be in the foreground listening to the pulse. But now that I can pay attention (with less effort), the rushing seems to disappear.

In that case, it's more of "reacting" to the pulse I think than necessarily following a metronome beat. So my guess is that these are two different practice elements.

Not sure though that there's ever a time though when practicing evenness becomes uneccessary. I would assume it's essential to maintaining chops.

Maybe it's easier for Longo since he already has the chops.

But I will admit that I seldom practice with the metronome now. Not because of anything said here (first time I saw the article). I think it is possible to practice evenness without a metronome just from slow playing and being conscious of every motion. Since my rushing diminished greatly, then I presume it works.

jazzwee and jjo ...interesting discussion of longo ...

about moving harmony and passing chords - the 371 bach chorales are the motherlode

http://imslp.org/wiki/Chorale_Harmonisations,_BWV_1-438_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)

passing chords, diminished approach chords, wild modulations, all usual and also very clever clever ways to use dissonance, unexpected resolutions, unexpected dissonance, beautiful lines, novel spacings and doublings ... moving bass lines and moving lines in general. it's all there .... every single chorale is a gem.

Unfortunately, I get a headache from sightreading. I avoid it like the plague...

Too bad Gyro's left the scene. I always enjoyed his hammer story.

Jazzwee: I think I understand what you're saying.
I think, however, I like the approach of the jazz camp pianist a bit more.
He had you think of the target chord and what harmonies can you add to approach that chord.
He suggested the "big 3" for approaching any chord: V (the dominant a fight above), tritone sub (the dominant a half step above), or the diminished a half step below.
If the piece is slow enough, you can also approach the approach chord using the Big 3.

I think the concept gets to a similar place as what you're suggesting, I'm just more comfortable with this approach for whatever reason.

jjo, what I'm talking about from BH has a different sound. Now mind you, it's new to me too. But the difference in sound is primarily the #5 which sounds like it wants to resolve descending. in contrast the half-step lower diminished feels like ascending. So different leading tone effect. The closest to it would be like playing V7b9.

This is but one approach though. I learned many but in the heat of a solo, it's really hard to think about all this because they're not necessarily something you'd think about as "melodic". So it requires some intellectualization while playing. I haven't come around to combining the two.

If I sit at home and look at a progression, I'd come up with all these little alternative harmonic ideas but unless it's a tune I practiced over and over, it's hard for it to come out.

I think this article is junk.

If I sum is up :
"Many educators tell you to do ... I say this is wrong, look at all this evidence"

I can find plenty of people who do not use a metronome and have definitely very bad time. Should I write an article on how "not using a metronome the proper way" will practically destroy your ability to ever swing,

I think this is a kind of "marketing" article. The type where you say that everyone is wrong, so take lessons with me and you'll get the truth.

I would take it all this stuff with a grain of salt. Perhaps he has a beautiful method for teaching how to swing, and I'd like to hear it. But the "proof" in this article is pretty useless to me.

Of course Knotty, one has to respect who the author is. This is Mike Longo, not some run of the mill Jazz Pianist. And Mike Longo's specialty is RHYTHM.

And if I read it right, I'm interpreting it as "Use a Metronome until you build the the skills for keeping time" then move on. So obviously, if you can't keep time yet and play evenly, then you're probably not ready for his method.

From even our discussions here, I somewhat understand what he's talking about. Swing is about controlled positioning of articulation on a beat. And if done right, it's not going to land on the 2 or the 4. So playing a metronome at 2 & 4 doesn't tell you specifically where you are supposed to land.

This is why I personally would rather play with a drum track than a metronome.

When I use a metronome, I have to imagine the triplet feel. A drummer marks it very specifically though so there's the difference.

Well you know what I think about drum tracks. I think they are the worst of all options. He uses the term soulless, I think drum tracks are exactly that.

If you're going to play with something, then I'd choose playing along to Charlie Parker or Coltrane or something.

I used to be able to find a nice Victor Wooten video with tons of metronome ideas. The concept of keeping time and then move on is kind of unreal in my view. There's time, and then there's time. I mean take any top jazz pianist, and compare his time to Keith's.
Know what I mean? :-)

I still think this is a marketing article, without much substance.

But that doesn't mean he's wrong. Maybe he's got a beautiful method out there. That's what I'd prefer hearing. Not what not to do, but what to do. To each his own you know, we all find our own stuff.

that text was tautology ad naseum, but if it worked for him, it must work for everyone else right?

Knots, I'm talking about real drum tracks. Like the Carmine recordings. Or even playing with a record. Certainly I find that superior to a metronome.

Aebeorsold -- the problem is that some of them have really complex rhythms so they're not the best for me.

Anyway, not that I disagree with practicing on a metronome itself. I don't. But I find it's a different thing playing with the band where the pulse may keep changing, vs. a metronome. If you're into yourself keeping your own independent time, you may still be out of phase with a band, who because they're human may have changed the rhythm slightly. So playing "evenly" vs. "keeping time" may be two separate issues.

Still, Mike Longo is highly respected, particularly in his approach to rhythms (which he worked on with Dizzy). He may see things a little differently to us because he's subdividing beats much further than we can imagine. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's something deeper in his comments that we just can't absorb at this moment.

A specific skill to which playing along with a metronome is helpful (as one way to do it) and playing along with a recording (as another way to do it) is building a mental image of what's being played.

I first came across that term in Abby Whiteside's book "On Piano Playing."

A review

http://www.modernpianoplaying.com/resources/great_literature.htm

says "Abby Whiteside's contribution is enormous, Here holistic approach to technique and music making calls for matching a centrally controlled physical continuity to an intense heard mapping of the basic undulating impetus of music."

The idea of the mental image is you "really" want to hear what you're playing. Hear it so strongly that it's palpable.

The "traditional" way of building a mental image is to image the sound you're trying to produce. And then imagine it with more detail. And more detail. I've heard that Dizzy Gillespie said a big part of his technique was that he shouted out the lines he was playing in his head - as he played them on the trumpet. By shouting them in his head he was insuring that he really HEARD them.


You can use a metronome to build a mental image if you really listen to what you're playing as you play along with it. So the metronome in this is just a measure that accompanies the mental image - what you're hearing in you're head. Of course the metronome carries on in rigid metronome time. But the idea sn't to focus on rigid metronome time for it's own sake. It's just to use the metronome as a measure against which to hear whatever it is you're hearing in your head. So in that sense it doesn't matter what style you're playing or anything. The metronome is just some background noise to help you concentrate on what you're hearing in your head.

Meditation with a mantra or focusing on your breathing works in about that same way.

A better way way to develop a mental image - I think - is to play along with a recording of whatever you're working on. So Transcribe (the software) let's you do this and much more. Because you can slow the recording down to some manageable speed but at the same time maintain original pitch. Slowing something down like that let's you really hear the nuances of whatever it is you're listening to.

The best part s if you wear headphones that slow version of whatever you're listening to get pumped directly into your ears. So what you hear in your head as you play the solo on your instrument gets complemented with what's coming in through headphones. Meaning you're reinforcing the mental image heard in your head with the sound coming to your ears through headphones


About advice from Mike Longo and or any great player: You have to use common sense and evaluate what you see and hear. Great players are not always great teachers. Great teachers are not always great players. The ability to do something well doesn't always translate into the ability to describe it well or to sequence it into useful steps for a learner.


To the metronome, as Dave Frank pointed out, Lennie Tristano was fond of the mentronome. He's even got a great recording (actually a classic recording) - Turkish Mambo - where he plays along with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oEiuUU6Ek4

He's overdubbed stuff on that recording too. He messed with a lot of heads then this stuff was first heard.

A bassist friend who I haven't seen in eons studied with Dave Holland who told him to practice with the metronome on all four beats. Charlie Banacos told me to never use a metronome. I once had a chance to practice with Mike Stern for a few days while he was in Boston playing with Miles Davis. We played Giant Steps for long periods with the metronome clicking away on 2 and 4. Mike Stern studied with Charlie Banacos for 30 years or so.

There is much conflicting opinion about the metronome and whether or not it should be used.

Anyway, if you haven't played along with Transcribe as I'm suggesting - and I'm writing this out to everyone who's following this discussion but not commenting - you know who yo are! - well, it's something that's well worth trying.

Here's a blog post I wrote about the idea of the mental image.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/08/towards-mental-image-of-music-part-1.html

... maybe it's obvious but the idea of a mental image is only useful to the extent that you use it. But that's the same for any practice aid or technique - ncluding the metronome. It's how you use it that counts. Not if you use it.

Hope this helps ..

Sorry to barge in, but I hoped some of you more advanced players wouldn't mind indulging a question or two of mine. I'm currently enrolled in two jazz classes that involve playing and/or learning to play various things on the piano. This is coupled with private lessons that have a somewhat more classical focus and so as a result, each week, I'm faced with learning - to a reasonable standard - a laundry list of voicings (both generic and tune-specific), a non-classical tune or two, and a selection or two from the classical repertoire. My question to you all is how, how often, and how much do you practice such things until they're subconsciously learned? Let's assume I'll break the material down into groups to facilitate some routine of "chunking" (so as not to foolishly try and learn everything at once). Oh, and so the question isn't quite so vague, three examples of things to learn are:

• ii9-V9(13)-I9(13) voice-leading pattern in all 12 keys
• Voicing handout for 12-bar blues in F
• Jazz/blues tune (Doxy) with 3 note voicings (3,7,color tone) in LH & melody in RH

Earlier this year, jazzwee made a post on his blog titled, "Filing Skills into your Subconscious Storage," but when it was suggested to practice things 5 times perfectly [daily], it was ambiguous as to how big the chunks might best be; see here: http://jazzwee-blog.blogspot.com.es/2013/02/filing-skills-into-your-subconscious.html

-a classical pianist/pedagogue I admire describes the process as programming one's "automatic pilot" (read here); "You cannot play 'intuitively' unless you have the 'intuition' in the first place."

-On Marian McPartland's first season of Piano Jazz (R.I.P.), Bill Evans said, "It's better to practice 1 tune for 24 hours than 24 tunes in an hour," and because there are so many things that go into learning to play just a single tune well, maybe he was saying the exact same thing - that it's better to focus meticulously on several little things (trying to absorb them into your subconscious mind) for a period of time than to try and take on everything at once.

So how do you all make use of these principles in your practicing? Also, if you were me and had my to-do list to practice, how would you go about it with all know and have learned?

Bobpickle, hi and welcome. That's alot of things to be working on!! I never bought the "practice in all 12 keys" mentality. In reality there's only 4-5 keys that are commonly used.

Better to do this. Play ONLY in 1 key for 1 month. For all jazz songs. You will have the 2-5-1 down solid if you do that. It is more the fingers knowing instinctively what shape the chord is.

Bill Evans was right. In that interview he also said he can't play in every key. No one will be calling out tunes in B, Gb... If you notice the fake books the keys seem to be C, F, Bb, Eb, G. Work on those first.

How long have you been playing piano and jazz for? It took me years to get it down, but I was in no rush.