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If Malkin is accurate in saying that she plays the piano poorly at a struggling intermediate level, then a grand piano action would probably not make much difference to her, let alone represent salvation. She may not even notice a difference. Of course she should still buy one if she wants to, because they look great and have symbolic status.
The quality line between uprights and grands is not clearly drawn, and there are high-end uprights (esp. German) that can bring tears of joy.
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Peter,
I disagree with that notion. Anyone, even beginners, will benefit from a more responsive action. Nobody benefits from a less responsive one.
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This thread has interested me because I couldn't quantify why I had to have a grand or why I like the grand better. Since getting a grand I have only been using my Yamaha U3 for duets with students.
But this thread renewed my curiosity. Why do I like the grand better? For one thing my grand has a medium touch, and the upright I have found is too light for me. But I wondered if it's more than that.
This morning I have played the same piece (excerpt from Wedding Day at Troldhaugen) on grand then upright, back and forth. And now I can say that I can tell the difference. At last I can feel the difference in the action. On my grand what I play is more controlled, piano responding exactly to my movement. On the upright at certain times playing bass notes piano, it feels like I've triggered a spring loaded response, (that punches out a note unexpectedly louder) that I have to carefully try to avoid to be able to obtain a lighter sound. It does take extra work with the upright.
At last I see that my grand truly is a better piano. Previously I thought my upright was technically better with its big resonant sound.
I see it's not just my preference for medium touch over light, or warmer sound over bright, but the action. Strangely I did not know why I wanted a grand so bad. And I've heard repeated descriptions of action differences that didn't add up to a meaningful understanding. My intuition led me to a grand. And after 2 years of playing it, I'm understanding not just that it is a better experience, but WHY. And I see clearly that my playing does sound better on my grand.
Thanks for this thread.
Last edited by Ann in Kentucky; 09/01/13 01:28 PM.
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I've been told that Joaquin Achucarro credits some of his technical prowess to having practiced for years as a student on uprights. I don't know if he feels this way or not, or what the truth of the matter is - he didn't say it to me, this was spoken to me by one of his students, so maybe it is just food for thought! Chopin Waltz in E Minor, Op. posth. - Joaquin Achucarro http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs4bC8IpdbU(I don't think I've ever seen anyone play with a bench that high!) M.
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Perhaps a case could be made for keeping my brain active and fending off senility, but the research indicates that I could accomplish that by knitting socks, which would certainly be more portable and less expensive and I'd end up with socks besides.
...my husband... he fell in love when he played our current piano.
I think you'd get bored knitting socks. Really, piano is so much more interesting and challenging. Did hubby fall in love with you or the piano when he played it? If he loves the piano, then it's a good reason to stay with it.
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In general, a grand is better than an upright, both in general are better than a digital. But I don't think we are arguing on this.
Anecdote is not data, personal feelings are not facts. Teachers, statistically, do your students that have a grant out perform other students? Do they learn faster? Do they stay longer? Are they happier?
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Teachers, statistically, do your students that have a grand out perform other students? Do they learn faster? Do they stay longer? Are they happier? Overwhelmingly yes to all three questions.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Teachers, statistically, do your students that have a grand out perform other students? Do they learn faster? Do they stay longer? Are they happier? Overwhelmingly yes to all three questions. Heck yeah! Though, I'd like to state that the students who DO own a grand piano (here in Greece) are also those who are also proven to be dedicated in what they're doing with the instrument. And I'd like to think that this applies globally: I don't think anyone goes to buy a grand piano costing at least 20,000$ (or whatever amount you want to put in) to their 6 year old because he just starter piano... Right? :-/
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Let me add that I see the same differential with students using keyboards compared to those using uprights. The differences aren't minimal, they are very pronounced.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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If statistically students with a grand out performance the students with a keyboard, it does not rule out the chance that a student that only has the keyboard actually turned out to be the best. Just the chance is smaller.
If you don't have access to an acoustic and you play better than the ones with grands, fell good about it, don't feel offended, you are exceptional. There are other factors, but let's focus on one for now.
Two teachers have spoken, more teachers, please....
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If one takes the last question and the answers at face value, then you guys are saying that a quality instrument is the MAIN FACTOR for success in music study. It also suggests (not what you mean to say) that anyone who cannot afford a top quality grand piano might as well pack up their bags and go home. If they are parents, their children will quit, regardless of how hard they work, or how good a teacher they have. If older students, regardless of their diligence, their innate ability, their quality of instruction, if they don't have such an instrument they will be: - outperformed --- even by the student who doesn't bother to practice, is disinterested - will learn slowly - will probably quit - will be unhappy
If you don't have a grand piano, that is what will happen. That is what you guys are saying if taken at face value. For anyone who is unable to get such an instrument, such a message would be highly discouraging. For anyone who thinks that the instrument will do 90% of it, well no, there is work involved.
Are there no other factors that teachers find important that relate to success and continuance in music study? Say - working properly and regularly, being taught properly, the ability to grasp and implement what is taught?
I think the answer to this question needs some balance.
And with this I'm bowing out.
Last edited by keystring; 09/01/13 05:13 PM.
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Teachers, is there no other factor that determines success and progress in a student? Of course not, nor do I believe anyone is either saying that or implying that. None the less, down through history, every craft and trade has been enhanced as the tools have improved. As you are a violinist, let me ask you this: Would you play better/progress faster with a bow made by perhaps Thomachot, Rolland, Raffin, E. Clement, C. Espey, M. Andersen, P. Siefried and Keith Peck, or Yamaha, Conn, Glazer, Schmidt or Shar?
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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Oops, your post changed since I started working on a reply, but I hope I addressed you main question.
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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As you are a violinist, let me ask you this: Would you play better/progress faster with a bow made by perhaps Thomachot, Rolland, Raffin, E. Clement, C. Espey, M. Andersen, P. Siefried and Keith Peck, or Yamaha, Conn, Glazer, Schmidt or Shar?
If I am a violin student, I would progress faster first of all with decent and thorough instruction, and then with an instrument (violin and bow) that meet at least certain standards, preferably to be tested out by my teacher. It does not go by maker - there are plenty of horrid Stradivariuses out there. The Tourte bow works wonders, I'm told, but few can afford one. The bow must be the proper weight, have the right kind of camber, and be properly balanced.
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Sorry John and also The Monkeys - I did change my post. But my question that you answered is still in there, John.
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As you are a violinist, let me ask you this: Would you play better/progress faster with a bow made by perhaps Thomachot, Rolland, Raffin, E. Clement, C. Espey, M. Andersen, P. Siefried and Keith Peck, or Yamaha, Conn, Glazer, Schmidt or Shar?
If I am a violin student, I would progress faster first of all with decent and thorough instruction, and then with an instrument (violin and bow) that meet at least certain standards, preferably to be tested out by my teacher. It does not go by maker - there are plenty of horrid Stradivariuses out there. The Tourte bow works wonders, I'm told, but few can afford one. The bow must be the proper weight, have the right kind of camber, and be properly balanced. Exactly, although there is probably overlap between the two areas. I don't think anyone is contradicting your point. But it was an answer to a question not asked by the OP!
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA
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I was mostly concerned with how the last question and answer might be taken. The OP is not the only person reading this thread. In any case, I think that particular issue has been fully discussed. For what remains of it, I wish you a lovely Sunday, and I shall do the same.
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If statistically students with a grand out performance the students with a keyboard, it does not rule out the chance that a student that only has the keyboard actually turned out to be the best. Just the chance is smaller.
If you don't have access to an acoustic and you play better than the ones with grands, fell good about it, don't feel offended, you are exceptional. There are other factors, but let's focus on one for now.
Two teachers have spoken, more teachers, please.... You have mentioned that "anecdote is not data" yet you ask for more anectotal data.
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A story about one student is anecdote.
If we have answers from say 10 teachers, I assume a teacher has at least 30 students, then we will cover 300 students, then it is statistics.
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Questions about who will outperform whom - not that useful. Other variables have been left out, as I wrote. Let's turn the page.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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