Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.5 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!


SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Modern Piano Moving
Modern Piano Moving
(ad)
Virtual Sheet Music
Download Sheet Music Instantly
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Sheet Music...
(125ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Piano Buyer Guide
Piano Buyer Spring 2017
(ad)
Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restorations and sales
Who's Online Now
98 registered members (36251, Beakybird, bcbarnes, 27 invisible), 1,883 guests, and 7 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
#2139978 - 08/28/13 02:06 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: pianorigami]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
New York
Originally Posted by pianorigami
....and although I'll have to wait at least a few more months, maybe more so I have time....

You have lots of time, because I don't think there's any such thing as being a few months away from being ready for this piece. grin

I realize that this can't be literally true, but I have to say, it sure seems like it: If you're ready for it, you're ready for it, and if you're not, it's probably going to be a fair while before you are.

OK, I have a better way to put it: If you're really just a few months away from being ready for it, it probably means you're ready for it right now but don't realize it.

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
#2139980 - 08/28/13 02:10 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,140
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,140
New York City
What does it mean to be "ready for it?" You're not not ready for it one day and then ready for it the next. wink


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2139981 - 08/28/13 02:12 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Polyphonist]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
New York
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
What does it mean to be "ready for it?" You're not not ready for it one day and then ready for it the next. wink

I think that's what I meant too -- it just took me longer to say it. ha

#2140086 - 08/28/13 07:38 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: pianorigami]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,710
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Orange Soda King  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,710
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted by pianorigami
Bringing back an OLD post.
My teacher suggested this piece to me, and although I'll have to wait at least a few more months, maybe more so I have time, I wanted to know: is it even worth attempting this piece if I can only reach a 9th (I can't reach B-flat to C, however)?
Of course, 10ths are not the main issue, but it's certainly one of them! Also, how does this piece compare to, say, Prokofiev's Toccata?


I'm not the best at comparing difficulties, but having played Ravel's and Prokofiev's, those two toccatas look like child's play compared to Schumann's.

(ad ) MusicNotes.com
sheet music search
#2140143 - 08/28/13 09:50 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,283
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member
izaldu  Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,283

#2140156 - 08/28/13 10:25 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Orange Soda King]  
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
pianorigami Offline
Full Member
pianorigami  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
United States
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by pianorigami
Bringing back an OLD post.
My teacher suggested this piece to me, and although I'll have to wait at least a few more months, maybe more so I have time, I wanted to know: is it even worth attempting this piece if I can only reach a 9th (I can't reach B-flat to C, however)?
Of course, 10ths are not the main issue, but it's certainly one of them! Also, how does this piece compare to, say, Prokofiev's Toccata?


I'm not the best at comparing difficulties, but having played Ravel's and Prokofiev's, those two toccatas look like child's play compared to Schumann's.


If that's true, then that's really scary! The Prok toccata seems pretty darn intense (also on my list!).
To compare double note "pieces," is it fair to say, in increasing order of difficulty: Chopin Etude op. 10 no. 7, Schumann Toccata, Liszt S 139/5 (Feux Follets)? I would find it hard to believe that the Toccata is harder than the Liszt (speaking of, HOW does ANYBODY pull that piece off??).
I don't know that I'm "made" for this piece at this moment in time, however; my teacher gives me pieces that challenge me (Op. 10 no. 4, for example. I didn't think I'd be able to do it, but it is actually sounding relatively close to how I'd want it to). So, I think if it were given to me to learn, I could go a long way with it.
1) Compared to the pieces above, how does it stack up in terms of technical and musical challenges (OrangeSodaKing, detailed analysis? smile )?
2) Would the Prokofiev Toccata be a better piece to start with (plus, does anybody else think that the Prok is actually easier than the Schumann??)?
3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?


Everyday is a great day.
#2140179 - 08/28/13 11:14 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: pianorigami]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,206
Carey Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Carey  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,206
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?


With this particular piece, it could be a problem. Have you actually tried reading through the first two pages? Have you asked your teacher about it?


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
#2140184 - 08/28/13 11:18 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,206
Carey Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Carey  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,206
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
What does it mean to be "ready for it?" You're not not ready for it one day and then ready for it the next. wink

I think that's what I meant too -- it just took me longer to say it. ha


Yes - but when you're young - and advancing rapidly - a few months can sometimes make a big difference in terms of being ready to tackle a piece. Then again, when you're much older, you're either ready for it or you're not. grin


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
#2140185 - 08/28/13 11:20 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Carey]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
New York
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?
With this particular piece, it could be a problem. Have you actually tried reading through the first two pages? Have you asked your teacher about it?

Maybe you're right, but I never had any impression that the 'reach' thing was an issue with this piece.

(Where?)

#2140243 - 08/28/13 01:00 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Mark_C]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,710
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Orange Soda King  Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,710
Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?
With this particular piece, it could be a problem. Have you actually tried reading through the first two pages? Have you asked your teacher about it?

Maybe you're right, but I never had any impression that the 'reach' thing was an issue with this piece.

(Where?)


Look at the left hand a few measures in. I don't think it's impossible with smaller hands, but I've joked that this is the only piece small hands will present a problem with, haha. I have small hands, but I have no problem approaching big intervals, such as in Brahms and Busoni.

#2140258 - 08/28/13 01:28 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Orange Soda King]  
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Mark_C  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 21,386
New York
OK -- sorry, I got our threads mixed up!
I started thinking this was about Chopin's 4th Scherzo!

#2140279 - 08/28/13 02:13 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Orange Soda King]  
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,206
Carey Offline
8000 Post Club Member
Carey  Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 8,206
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?
With this particular piece, it could be a problem. Have you actually tried reading through the first two pages? Have you asked your teacher about it?

Maybe you're right, but I never had any impression that the 'reach' thing was an issue with this piece.

(Where?)


Look at the left hand a few measures in. I don't think it's impossible with smaller hands, but I've joked that this is the only piece small hands will present a problem with, haha. I have small hands, but I have no problem approaching big intervals, such as in Brahms and Busoni.


IMHO, if you can't easily reach a 10th with your LH, then it is challenging to play the first couple of pages (and similar sections of the piece) as written. You can always try to "break" the chord by playing the lower note first, but at the tempo this piece "should" be played, doing so would be awkward and sound a bit strange. I recall that some of the 10ths are easier to reach than others - depending on the actual notes involved.

That said, pianorigami, I'm glad you resurrected this old thread. When I originally posted here over four years ago, I said I was starting to work on this Toccata (after "thinking" about learning it for many years) - but I decided to put it aside until I retired and had more time to focus on it. Well, I've been retired for almost four years now and still haven't gotten around to it. ha Also - Sotto Voce and I were both learning it at the time, and were exchanging PM's, articles, etc. Then things suddenly changed.........(old timers here will know what I mean). grin

Last edited by carey; 08/28/13 02:15 PM.

Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
#2140296 - 08/28/13 02:49 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: pianorigami]  
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 210
D. S. F. Offline
Full Member
D. S. F.  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 210
Bah...I was writing my response, and pressed backspace to erase letters, and it loaded the last page losing my thoughts (Venting...it takes me SO long to write of thought...)

Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?


It is very debilitating in this piece. It's not the LH 10ths, but the RH 10ths which are most problematic for my small hands. Splitting them compromises accuracy. But then depending on the make up of your hand, the 10ths are not the only problem stretch wise. My RH fingers 2-4 cannot reach the B flat - F sharp stretch, which would be the ideal fingers to use oscillating with the G octaves (I am going from memory here...I think these are the notes). So then the fingering becomes 5-5-5-5 in the top...not ideal, very awkward...

It doesn't mean you shouldn't try it - it's too great a piece not to try. Just know we with small hands will not be able to do some of the things larger hands naturally can do with the piece.


Music does not have to be understood;
It has to be listened to.
- Hermann Scherchen.
#2140350 - 08/28/13 05:21 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: D. S. F.]  
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,140
Polyphonist Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Polyphonist  Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,140
New York City
Originally Posted by D. S. F.
Bah...I was writing my response, and pressed backspace to erase letters, and it loaded the last page losing my thoughts (Venting...it takes me SO long to write of thought...)

Which is why, when writing long posts, I highlight my progress and copy it from time to time, so that if there's an issue I can just reload the page and paste what I had back into the box, and continue.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2140413 - 08/28/13 07:16 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: D. S. F.]  
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
pianorigami Offline
Full Member
pianorigami  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
United States
Originally Posted by D. S. F.
Bah...I was writing my response, and pressed backspace to erase letters, and it loaded the last page losing my thoughts (Venting...it takes me SO long to write of thought...)

Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?


It is very debilitating in this piece. It's not the LH 10ths, but the RH 10ths which are most problematic for my small hands. Splitting them compromises accuracy. But then depending on the make up of your hand, the 10ths are not the only problem stretch wise. My RH fingers 2-4 cannot reach the B flat - F sharp stretch, which would be the ideal fingers to use oscillating with the G octaves (I am going from memory here...I think these are the notes). So then the fingering becomes 5-5-5-5 in the top...not ideal, very awkward...

It doesn't mean you shouldn't try it - it's too great a piece not to try. Just know we with small hands will not be able to do some of the things larger hands naturally can do with the piece.

I didn't see how many 10ths there are until I sightread it. Did Schumann have monster hands?? Sigh. I can't even comfortably reach a 9th, so until my hand grows, I'll have to be fine with listening to this piece. Tons of pieces are easy to get away with (Chopin- rolling; some Liszt), but the sheer rapidity and number of 10ths means I'll have to wait.
Not to change the topic of the thread (I'll make it brief), but does the Prokofiev Toccata have as many 10ths (or large 9ths...)?
Thanks!


Everyday is a great day.
#2140417 - 08/28/13 07:29 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
ScriabinAddict Offline
Full Member
ScriabinAddict  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
[video:youtube]rrEeLSBCcz0[/video]

Daim.

+

[video:youtube]PylzJc6kH0o[/video]

Wonderful piece, notoriously difficult. Despite it being fairly comfortable, 5+ minutes of double note passages and octaves is pretty taxing.

Last edited by ScriabinAddict; 08/28/13 07:29 PM.
#2140428 - 08/28/13 08:10 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 393
Serge Marinkovic Offline
Full Member
Serge Marinkovic  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 393
United States
It took me three years to learn this piece. It has several technique and musical needs to bring this piece to an audience performance. Probably my overall favorite piece. I heard Kissin play it as an encore during a Philadelphia recital in the winter of 1995. It brought the house down. People in the front rows were standing with 45 seconds to go in the piece it was stupendous. Back stage he said he had never played it so well.


Serge P. Marinkovic, MD

#2140614 - 08/29/13 09:47 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: D. S. F.]  
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
pianorigami Offline
Full Member
pianorigami  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
United States
Originally Posted by D. S. F.
Bah...I was writing my response, and pressed backspace to erase letters, and it loaded the last page losing my thoughts (Venting...it takes me SO long to write of thought...)

Originally Posted by pianorigami

3) How debilitating is not being able to reach a 10th (at ALL)?


It is very debilitating in this piece. It's not the LH 10ths, but the RH 10ths which are most problematic for my small hands. Splitting them compromises accuracy. But then depending on the make up of your hand, the 10ths are not the only problem stretch wise. My RH fingers 2-4 cannot reach the B flat - F sharp stretch, which would be the ideal fingers to use oscillating with the G octaves (I am going from memory here...I think these are the notes). So then the fingering becomes 5-5-5-5 in the top...not ideal, very awkward...


I totally underestimated the shear number of tenths. What a shame! It looks like this piece, until my hands grow (fingers crossed), will have to be one I just listen to. There are just too many 10ths at too fast a tempo to roll or ignore them all!

Last edited by pianorigami; 08/29/13 09:48 AM.

Everyday is a great day.
#2140632 - 08/29/13 10:21 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 230
Frankni Offline
Full Member
Frankni  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 230
UK
A quick question: was this piece written before or after Schumann destroyed his right "piano hand" allegedly by using a mechanical device or perhaps by putting wedges between the fingers? Maybe the piece was the single most cause of the composer's demise as a pianist? Just a thought.


Yamaha C3, Sauter Delta 185
#2140651 - 08/29/13 11:19 AM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: Frankni]  
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
pianorigami Offline
Full Member
pianorigami  Offline
Full Member

Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 407
United States
Originally Posted by Frankni
A quick question: was this piece written before or after Schumann destroyed his right "piano hand" allegedly by using a mechanical device or perhaps by putting wedges between the fingers? Maybe the piece was the single most cause of the composer's demise as a pianist? Just a thought.

After reading a little on Schumann, I think the toccata was composed after his hand was ruined. Thusly, I doubt he could have played it. No wonder it's so hard...


Everyday is a great day.
#2141887 - 08/31/13 04:31 PM Re: Schumann Toccata Op. 7 [Re: sotto voce]  
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,873
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
dolce sfogato  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,873
Just a few thoughts on op. 7: I have been playing this great piece for say 25 years, in concert, and it is a gem in any recital, needs to be programmed carefully though, only 7 minutes of hard work, no big ending, hard to place (I like to play op.18-op.7 in one go). Technically, everybody who hasn't played it talks about tenths, strain on biceps, endurance, difficult double notes, blablabla, no one talks about Schumann, the poet-composer that, yes, also here, writes very melodically, even in the somewhat 'childish'-sounding 2nd subject (op.15 lurking in the distance), but also in the coda (where, magically, the metric shift of one 16th note pulls over the whole piece till the end!) and actually everywhere, it's a real pinkysolo-etude. It's dynamics are more p than f, a distinction rarely observed. Although I'm sure that Schumann wanted to write a bravoura piece, dedicated it to Ludwig Schunke, who read through it and played it to perfection at first sight according to the composer, and transposed it down from D to C, former discussions might catch fire here..., he was himself enough not to end it in a flashy manner, but let the piece outrun itself and, even in a higher tempo, lets it diminish and go out like a flame, just one question remains: why did he write such a totally unplayable c-major chord that no one can reach, just Richter might be the one who did? As to tempo: the piece needs to have a very strict one, mostly depending on the octave-section, the most difficult I think, compares to Chopin op.25/9, a piece everybody regards as one of the easier etudes, I don't, I hold that one for one of the more difficult ones, leggierissimo etc. no power, yaya.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Piano Acc. & Gift Items in
Piano World's Online Store
In PianoSupplies.com ,(a division of Piano World) our online store for piano and music gifts and accessories, party goods, tuning equipment, piano moving equipment, benches, lamps Caster Cups and more.


Free Shipping on Jansen Artist Piano Benches
(ad)
Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
ad
Pierce Piano Atlas


(ad)
Pianoteq
Grotrian Concert
Royal
for Pianoteq out now
What's Hot!!
Why Do You Play The Piano?
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
-------------------
Piano Classified Ads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Carpal Tunnel Piano Tuner Syndrome
by prout. 06/28/17 08:11 PM
Smallest screen for VST (Kontakt)?
by Joe Garfield. 06/28/17 07:57 PM
First few chords
by bozola. 06/28/17 06:11 PM
Need help with choosing a digital piano
by xiaofeipo. 06/28/17 03:42 PM
Expected sheet reading ability?
by keyboardisproblem. 06/28/17 03:41 PM
(ad)
Sheet Music Plus
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Forum Statistics
Forums44
Topics180,510
Posts2,639,893
Members88,215
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Check It Out!
There's a lot more to Piano World than just the forums.
Check It Out!
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2017 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0