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Yeah, that's what I figured.

You just keep telling yourself that, Young Man...

Oh p*ss off.

HEY!!! WATCH IT!!!

In the 18th and 19th Centuries, ink and paper cost money, and cost quite dear.

Beethoven did something similar with the Bagatelle op. 126 #1. At the end he wrote "La seconda parte due volte."
Were it not for that explicit instruction I might be tempted to omit the repeat (when playing for myself.)

It is similar, but also, I think it's quite different. This is Beethoven saying "repeat the second part even though you didn't repeat the first part." i.e. "this isn't a copy error; I really want only the second part repeated". If both parts had had repeats he wouldn't have given instructions no matter how mandatory he considered them.

The same thing happens (with the same instructions) in the last movement of Appassionata.

-J

Cool-- I never knew that. You mean there's a Haydn sonata whose first movement is in sonata form but its exposition isn't repeated? Do you know which one (or the key)?

-J

Short answer: It depends.

That's not very helpful, so I'll give examples.

When I play a complete sonata for a recital, I usually play the repeats. Even the repeat of the third movement of op.27/2 (Moonlight).
In the case of op.10/1 I do it because the second movement does not have any repeats, but is still longer than the first or third movement with repeats. So leaving out the repeats there would give much room to the second movement.

When I play sonatas, or movements, for my own amusement, it depends on my mood and my time available. Example: I sometimes play a personal mix of Beethoven sonatas (op.13 (Pathétique), first movement, op.27/2 (Moonlight), second movement, op.31/2 (Tempest), third movement). When I do so I usually leave out the repeats; even the repeats of the second movement of Moonlight; which makes it really short.

So: Ask yourself what you play, why you play it and whom you play for. Then decide whether you want to include or omit the repeats.

I played the first movement of k 330 at a student recital. My teacher thought that I could also play something else with the sonata so that I would get to play more. I suggested that I repeat the exposition of the sonata, but my teacher thought I shouldn't, so I ended up not playing any repeats. The slow movement does need at least some of the repeats played (if I remember correctly, Mozart wrote repeats in the first A section, and in the B section, but not in the second A section).

I don't like repeating developments + recaps because of repeating the development. I don't think it is good for the structure. I could see repeating just the recap working, but since no composer (that I'm aware of) wrote sonatas in which only the recaps are repeated, the idea really doesn't work. (There's usually a V-I cadence and a pause between exposition and development + recap, but the development + recap are bridged together)

It is worthwhile to note, I think, that in the Classical period, many people heard music one time, and that was it. Forever. In that sort of situation, the repeat plays a somewhat different role than it does in ours. It's not necessarily just about structure.

I think that in our present time, when repeats are usually literally that - repeats with nothing changed (no extra ornamentation etc), it often makes no sense to take all repeats just because there's a repeat mark there.

It amazes me how some pianists can justify some repeats and not others - like Alfred Brendel and his disciples who refuse to play the repeat of Schubert's D960 1st movement despite that resulting in an incomplete performance of this great work (because some bars are left out). Yet they repeat note-for-note, and every single nuance, some other pieces, with no attempt at giving a fresh insight during the repeat.

Very few performances of Mozart symphonies are played with all repeats - I think there's one recording where the last two symphonies are played thus (one suspects that the recording engineer just spliced the same performance in twice, as the repeats were completely identical), and each symphony lasted over 40 minutes. And in fact, most Beethoven symphony performances don't take all repeats either. The only one that seems mandatory is that in the first movement of the 5th, partly because it's too short without it.

Personally, I believe that in piano music, one should play a repeat if not taking it would result in leaving out some music that the composer wrote (or if the composer specifically indicated that it must be taken), or if one is convinced that the music needs that repeat. Don't play a repeat if you are not convinced about it, and have no idea what to do during the repeat other than repeating exactly what you've already just played.....

Of course, I do. Hob XVI:51, Dmajor.

I don't know the ins and outs of all repeats, but I've always been under the impression that the only time I should omit them is if I need to save time in a competition (granted, I only did small, local competitions in high school), and if I am playing in some sort of studio or student recital. But if I have my own recital, or time is not an issue, I will take repeats!

Although, isn't sonata form sort-of a combination of binary and ternary forms? Having an expo-development-recap format feels ternary, but because the expo repeats AND the development/recap repeats, that hearkens back to binary form, right?

Heck, sonata principle technically does not NEED a development section, right? (Though most do.)

Well, it's what they call a rounded binary. And yeah, it does need a development and all the modulatory structures that go with to fit in that mold. Without it, it's some kind of rondo.

Yep... Interesting that it's late Haydn.

By the way, the most tedious repeating I've ever heard is in my otherwise-excellent Mozart symphony recordings by Trevor Pinnock. What he does in the minuets is unforgivable: Not only does he take all the repeats the first time through, he takes them again after the trio! Great music, but I don't have to hear the A-material eight times!!

-J

Umm, yeah, I'm thinking that might be a bit much! I can't say I've ever heard anyone take the repeats on the second time through.

I haven't, either. I though repeats should be omitted after the trio of a minuet and trio form

Yes, I thought that was customary.

Count me in as a BIG stickler for repeats in Beethoven, even the less 'consensus' ones such as in the finale of the 5th.

However, I was rather surprised that Katsaris, in his recording of the Beethoven-Liszt 6th, takes the exposition repeat. I hardly thought that necessary, even if I would be outraged if it were omitted in an orchestral performance.