Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Pianist Corner Repeats in Beethoven

Joel, my point was that not all that long ago you were wholeheartedly on the bandwagon that says "the score is nothing but a guide... do your own thing" and now you're asking about the validity of taking repeats. Why would you care what Beethoven has written in this regard?

Regarding Horowitz/Mozart/Beethoven... I am not saying that his playing is not beautiful (I've not ever heard a time when it wasn't), but that isn't the point.

Because I'm not aware of all of Beethoven's sonatas and don't know how important any of the repeats may be. For all of the Mozart sonatas I've heard, the repeats don't mean a thing imo, but I don't yet know if the same can be said structurally about the Beethoven sonatas, especially the later ones.

I thought there was a good chance you meant it in some other way than how he took it (because it's clearly untrue).

Well it absolutely IS vital in his later sonatas - usually the structure depends on it! And, if a composer wrote two different endings to a repeat, I think generally a good idea to play it

My thoughts on repeats in Beethoven - or anywhere else, for that matter :

I always take them on the principle that if I didn't get it right the first time, I may get lucky and play it better - maybe even right - the second!

Cheers!

Is there any consensus on where to repeat in the first movement of Beethoven's Pathétique (i.e. from the beginning of the Grave or from the Allegro)?

Shades of Chopin's Funeral March Sonata here....(though in Chopin, more and more pianists are gravitating towards repeating from the Grave rather than from the Doppio movimento, as used to be the norm).

No.

(Same issue.)

But I know that people here have views on it.
Mine: Not back to the beginning. (Likewise in the Chopin.)

Do you think that Mozart was not as aware of what he was doing as was Beethoven? Why do Mozart's repeats not mean a thing? If you use structure as the basis for your answer, then I'd like to know WHY structurally you feel a repeat is not necessary.

I don't know how to explain it. In K330, for example, I don't find any of the repeats necessary. Taking them out doesn't hurt the piece at all imo. All I was really asking is if there were repeats in Beethoven sonatas that are CRUCIAL to the structure, and taking them out would significantly harm the piece. It's my understanding that Beethoven wrote very architecturally.

The fact that Mozart and Haydn repeat every single one of their expositions, while (for example) Beethoven chose to repeat his Waldstein exposition, but not his Appassionata exposition: I think this fact speaks volumes. It suggests that Beethoven deliberately decided, work by work, whether to repeat (at least after his early works), whereas Haydn and Mozart did not.

This doesn't necessarily mean you should ignore Mozart's and Haydn's repeats. But it does point to a fundamental difference in these composers' attitudes which I think is relevant.

-Jason

So, your answer, basically, is that you don't know why you feel the repeats aren't necessary with Mozart. You just feel that leaving them out doesn't hurt the piece. Fine. If that is your enlightened opinion, then you ought to be able to determine whether, or not, Beethoven's repeats are crucial to his structure(s). How are you able to make such a determination with one composer and not another?

Um... I made a determination, if you want to pick on me instead. In the post two above this one, I raised what is (I think) an interesting and relevant point that separates Haydn and Mozart from Beethoven regarding sonata exposition repeats. It doesn't settle the debate, but I think it's interesting.


-J

I'm not picking on anyone. I simply asked Joel to explain his thinking regarding said repeats. Your point is well taken and while Mozart did ask for repeats with all of his expositions, Haydn did not.

I already told you - I don't know his later sonatas. This thread was really just a simple request for knowledge.

Well, it's a matter of personal taste. However I must say, as someone who has performed that piece for over 30 years, that I find ALL those repeats essential, especially in the andante. If you don't find any use for them, then I must accuse you of lacking an imagination (as much as I like you personally).

Beethoven owned a pen, and ink to go with it. The ink cost money to make, and to buy. Do you really think he wrote all those repeats by hand just for fun, when it cost him money to do so? BTW, the engraver would not have thought of those repeats as superfluous, considering just how much effort it used to take to scrive them accurately and cleanly on a copper plate using a burr, nor would the publisher have been happy to pay for them to do so considering what that all cost at the time, or even today if it were still done by hand.

I don't believe writing a repeat sign requires a whole lot of effort and ink.

Yes, but you don't explain WHY Mozart's aren't necessary... only that you don't FEEL their omission takes away from the piece. What we like, when it is different from what is written in the score, is not enough(maybe you ought to watch the Barenboim/Beethoven sonatas masterclass with David Kadouch, if you think I am a purist about the score and it's detail (and I've never heard Barenboim accused of being a purist)... of course, you may believe Barenboim knows nothing about Beethoven). You've stated that you don't know LvB's later sonatas, so, I must ask about the repeats found in the sonatas you DO know (I've no idea to what point you are aware of the 32). Are these necessary and why? To state that a repeat affects the structure (with, or without that repeat) without knowing how, and why, it affects the structure is to not understand the thing entirely. You may think that I'm needling you, but I'm not. I'm trying to get you to dig a little deeper (do the homework) and learn the answers to your questions on your own. To understand something as simple as a repeat and the how and why it affects a work is to improve your performance of that work.

If the music is good, I have no problems hearing it again. I WANT to hear it again.

Schiff can take as many repeats as he wants, I'll be still be listening 6 hours later.

If you are going to do a repeat and do nothing with it or worse, muck it up, well maybe then...

I have nothing against "doing your own homework" but what exactly is the matter with asking Piano World sometimes? How lame would it be if no one ever exchanged knowledge around here..

I'd like to add that I think some pieces DO sound right with the repeat and sound wrong without the repeat. If K545's exposition didn't repeat the main theme would feel cut short. Same goes for Chopin sonata 2 imo. I feel like the repeat helps the structure. Other pieces, I don't feel this way. I don't know.. whatever. Stupid thread.

Just ask yourself a question: what is the point of doing the repeat?

Is there a structural reason?

The composer liked the material so much that he suggests it be played twice?

The composer is too lazy to write the music out again?

The composer wants to make sure the audience has a firm grasp of the material before developing it?

The first repeat colours the exposition so that the second runthrough has a different , meaning?