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This really is related to the discussion on another thread (which I avoided like the plague) about what "musical" means.
To me, anyone who says flat-out something like that Horowitz's Mozart is terrible is just showing a rigid and limited view of music. What it means is that Horowitz isn't following that person's strong views on what Mozart playing should be, and (I guess) on how scores should be observed -- and that the person isn't allowing for different meaningful ways.
I can see all kinds of things that Horowitz isn't doing, and I can see ways in which he violates certain notions of what is correct. But I also see much that is extremely wonderful, and I think it's GREAT -- despite what's not there. I also happen to like it.
I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy and greatly admire Mozart performances that 'purists' would hold up as better models. I'm not sure I'd like any of them better than Horowitz's, and I suspect that some of them would put me to sleep.
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste. I wouldn't like it as Bach, I wouldn't like it as Beethoven, and I don't like it as Mozart. (Of course, this is all relative.)
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste....
NO PROBLEM!!!
It would only be a problem if you also saw fit to say that it's no good.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Hmm - did we sneak in a change....
Yes. I made a mistake in including any personal reference, and I took it out. I'd appreciate if you take it out of your post too.
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste....
NO PROBLEM!!!
It would only be a problem if you also saw fit to say that it's no good.
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Hmm - did we sneak in a change....
Yes. I made a mistake in including any personal reference, and I took it out. I'd appreciate if you take it out of your post too.
Even if I abandon all my views about "what Mozart playing should be," and look at this performance completely abstractly, it is still not to my taste....
NO PROBLEM!!!
It would only be a problem if you also saw fit to say that it's no good.
Although I tend to agree with stores on most subjects, I think what he often misses is the fact that there is a large spectrum between no good and excellent. So either he deeply admires something, or it's awful. Usually, it's awful.
Actually, I found his Mozart quite beautiful as he got older. But he took some obvious liberties, some to very great but obviously 19th-century effect.
You'll have to decide for yourself. But I will tell you that critics, concert presenters and audition judges will expect you to take them in a public recital but not at the audition.
Although I tend to agree with stores on most subjects, I think what he often misses is the fact that there is a large spectrum between no good and excellent. So either he deeply admires something, or it's awful. Usually, it's awful.
And it's more than that. It's not just that there's a lot of room between those things, but also that there's such a thing as "This isn't how I think it should be and I think it stinks, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not good or great, even if I have no clue how that could be possible."
Always take [Beethoven's repeats]. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.
I generally agree, but I have a hard time stomaching those occasional Development-Recap repeats. I'm working on op.2/2 right now, and it just feels too repetitive. In that sonata, the Recap is already so similar to the Exposition; I just don't think we need to hear this material four times!
Although I tend to agree with stores on most subjects, I think what he often misses is the fact that there is a large spectrum between no good and excellent. So either he deeply admires something, or it's awful. Usually, it's awful.
And it's more than that. It's not just that there's a lot of room between those things, but also that there's such a thing as "This isn't how I think it should be and I think it stinks, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not good or great, even if I have no clue how that could be possible."
Well, this just comes down to understanding the barrier between opinion and fact. There are certain things that you think are bad, and it's just your opinion, and there are things that are just wrong. In this case, stores is clearly stating an opinion and not trying to pass it as a fact, and so he hasn't done anything wrong yet. Where he does go wrong is when he starts labeling people as ignorant because they have a different opinion.
Always take [Beethoven's repeats]. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.
I generally agree, but I have a hard time stomaching those occasional Development-Recap repeats. I'm working on op.2/2 right now, and it just feels too repetitive. In that sonata, the Recap is already so similar to the Exposition; I just don't think we need to hear this material four times!
-J
I'd leave out the second repeat. Beethoven went a little over the top there.
....is clearly stating an opinion and not trying to pass it as a fact, and so he hasn't done anything wrong yet....
....but that's just it: I guess you missed it, but he said it's NOT just an opinion.
So let him think what he wants to think. Don't tear your hair out over it. It's not like he's forcing you to share his opinion. I happen to agree with him, but I think in this particular instance it's less black-and-white than he's making it out to be.
Always take [Beethoven's repeats]. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.
I generally agree, but I have a hard time stomaching those occasional Development-Recap repeats. I'm working on op.2/2 right now, and it just feels too repetitive. In that sonata, the Recap is already so similar to the Exposition; I just don't think we need to hear this material four times!
-J
I'd leave out the second repeat. Beethoven went a little over the top there.
And yet, it's interesting that he also puts a second repeat in the first movement of op.10/2, but not in op.10/1. So at least by op.10, he's not just doing it automatically (as perhaps Haydn does), but, rather, makes a conscious decision to include the repeat in one sonata and not the other. I don't like it in op.10/2 either.
Always take [Beethoven's repeats]. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.
I generally agree, but I have a hard time stomaching those occasional Development-Recap repeats. I'm working on op.2/2 right now, and it just feels too repetitive. In that sonata, the Recap is already so similar to the Exposition; I just don't think we need to hear this material four times!
-J
I'd leave out the second repeat. Beethoven went a little over the top there.
And yet, it's interesting that he also puts a second repeat in the first movement of op.10/2, but not in op.10/1. So at least by op.10, he's not just doing it automatically (as perhaps Haydn does), but, rather, makes a conscious decision to include the repeat in one sonata and not the other. I don't like it in op.10/2 either.
-Jason
The reason I don't like those repeats is because they destroy the natural format of a sonata, with the development bridging the outer expositional sections. The exposition repeat does not do this.
The reason I don't like those repeats is because they destroy the natural format of a sonata, with the development bridging the outer expositional sections. The exposition repeat does not do this.
Exactly: I agree. But if we are to act on our intuition here (as I think we should), we have to have the courage to say: Here is a specific thing that Beethoven unambiguously tells us do, and we are choosing to ignore him.
Assuming you worship Beethoven as I do, that does take some courage.
