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How important are repeats in Beethoven's sonatas? Did he construct his sonatas in a way that the repeats are crucial, or can they simply be taken out like much of Mozart's? I'm aware that the answer is probably different depending on the sonata but in this case I would be asking specifically about op. 2/1.

Always take them. Always, all of them. Never ignore them.

I don't know about Mozart's repeats, but it's a bit questionable to take them out. Is that the standard performing practice these days?

Concerning repeats, I think that when you're performing for people who are not familiar with the work, repeating is a good idea, even when the work is technically weaker without it (I'm thinking of Chopin's 3rd, which I'm hopefully going to perform soon).

You think the Chopin 3rd is weaker without the repeat? I violently disagree.

It's up in the air for a lot of people. However, I'm planning performing it with the repeat.

For a lot of competitions, they encourage NOT to take repeats, or even strictly forbid them. If you're preparing it for a competition, there's no point in practicing with the repeat; however, if you're learning it for a recital, or something similar where the audience appreciates the music, by all means, take it!

Don't really know. I heard K330 by Uchida first and the discovered Horowitz's and was a little stunned at first when he didn't play ANY of the repeats but after a couple more listens I started to strongly agree with Horowitz's decision. Now every time I hear the regular version I think the repeats sound so forced. I also feel that way about the Beethoven sonata. Certain repeats after what should be the ending cadence feel so forced and displeasing to my ear. Hey - I can always take out the repeats at home for my pleasure.

Congratulations on playing the Chopin sonata BTW.

Read up on "sonata form."

Agreed. It drags on with the repeat imo. Don't get me wrong, I love the exposition, but when it's been played through once, I want to hear the development section!

Horowitz, Joel, is NOT the pianist you want for your model with Mozart, or Beethoven. His Beethoven, especially, was not good. That said, I'm quite surprised that you're even asking about whether it is proper, or not, to take repeats.

Agree extremely on all counts.

That exposition is one of my very very favorite things in music. It's one of my very favorite things of anything. But repeating it ____s up the piece.

I agree with taking all repeats in Beethoven. I mean, I'm not sure if I agree with it in an "on-principle" kind of way; it's just that I can't think of one where it seems to make sense not to take it.

Do you think the repeat ____s up the Schubert Bflat, or 959? Just curious...

Love the repeat in D960! You go through the exposition the second time wondering what on earth is going to happen in the development...

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with D959...

First of all please see what I added to the above post. (It might blunt whatever outrage you might feel about what I might say about the Schubert.)

edit: I wrote this next thing mistakenly thinking that 959 was the B-flat. (I realized it when I saw Kuan's post.) So, this next thing is about the B-flat:

I'm not as clear on the Schubert. I personally would never take it when performing it publicly (not that I've done it -- just talking hypothetically) ....but when playing it for myself I think I'd ALWAYS want to take it.

In hearing performances by others, I'm generally very glad that they don't; I don't think I've ever been to a performance where anyone did. But with certain few performers, I would hope that they would.


So....about 959, which was what you asked about:

Again, I wouldn't put it nearly as strongly as I did about the Chopin. But I do prefer it without the repeat, far more so than with 960.

So, for what it's worth, I guess there's sort of a "hierarchy" for me (all IMO, all subjective, and all subject to laughter and mocking, perhaps deserved):

Beethoven: Don't even think of not taking repeats
Schubert D. 960: I love the repeat, wouldn't want to do without it when playing it for myself but wouldn't 'inflict' it on any audience
Schubert D. 959: Please omit the repeat but I won't drop dead if you take it
Chopin Sonata #3: I'll drop dead if you take it.

That's your opinion. I love Horowitz's Mozart. To me, it is the best.

And I really don't think it's a question to be surprised at. If major competitions ban repeats, why should I not question the validity of certain repeats on the notion that they may be a result of pure convention?

Do you think the repeat was just a conventional thing?

Basic question. Why do composers write repeats in sonata form structures? I understand why in da capo structures, especially in the baroque era, that allow for enhanced ornamentaion in the repeat, and in most cases are needed to get you back to the original key.

Yes.

It's not really just an opinion... his Mozart, and Beethoven, are terrible. The fact that you like his Mozart brings me back to the point about you even questioning the validity of repeats, which, obviously, you missed the point on.

Speaking as a huge Horowitz fan, I agree that he's not particularly a model for Mozart or Beethoven, but this:


....is, at best, just an opinion, and more likely I'd say, pretty extreme.


I'm with you on the repeats, but I'm not ashamed to say that I'm with Joel in loving Horowitz's Mozart.

Wrong.



Did you even make a point? Honestly, I even looked back at your post to make sure before I wrote this. I don't see a point, all I see is you stating that Horowitz is not the model to use for Mozart and Beethoven. You didn't provide any real substance behind that statement. Please inform me of what you mean. And please, don't tell me to go do my homework as a cop-out!