2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
88 members (accordeur, AndyOnThePiano, Beemer, Anjru, ambrozy, AndrewJCW, aphexdisklavier, 19 invisible), 991 guests, and 524 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 313 of 341 1 2 311 312 313 314 315 340 341
Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
chrisbell #2139527 08/27/13 03:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by chrisbell
Very cool JW. I would've loved to come.


Sure you can. Take a vacation in Southern Cal smile

I'm curious to learn about Barry's diminished scale approach to chords. Is it some variation to Alan P's Diminished Cycle? (which was more on dominants).

He still holds weekly classes in NYC.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2139588 08/27/13 08:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,042
Jw,

That's really cool that you'll organize this for your community.

Some of his workshops vids on youtube are amazing, he's not just a great player, but a music philosopher. And he says it like he means it.

You should have a blast with this.

If you know someone that's got recording gear and is willing to set it up, that would be really great.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2139763 08/27/13 04:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Yes - I will set up to record.

One of the concepts he talks about is explained in this article below. Perhaps, someone can throw more light into this. I think I understand it but requires a lot of woodshedding in every key.

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2000%20Aug-Minor%206th%20Diminished%20Scale.pdf

If I understand it right, there's a diminished chord in the scale so he made these scale variations so you can move the chord around creating a little tension. Which, I presume is designed to leave the key for a moment with just the presence of the extra one note. And by specifically identifying a pattern in the scale as a diminished chord, it creates a particular sound.

So, if I understand it right, he made a sure there's a diminished chord in every one of the scales (major, minor, dominant, half-dim).

A bit more interesting sound I presume than just moving around diatonically.

Again, this is my interpretation but maybe some of you are actually familiar with this concept.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2139845 08/27/13 07:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,477
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,477
Originally Posted by jazzwee
Yes - I will set up to record.

One of the concepts he talks about is explained in this article below. Perhaps, someone can throw more light into this. I think I understand it but requires a lot of woodshedding in every key.

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2000%20Aug-Minor%206th%20Diminished%20Scale.pdf

If I understand it right, there's a diminished chord in the scale so he made these scale variations so you can move the chord around creating a little tension. Which, I presume is designed to leave the key for a moment with just the presence of the extra one note. And by specifically identifying a pattern in the scale as a diminished chord, it creates a particular sound.

So, if I understand it right, he made a sure there's a diminished chord in every one of the scales (major, minor, dominant, half-dim).

A bit more interesting sound I presume than just moving around diatonically.

Again, this is my interpretation but maybe some of you are actually familiar with this concept.


I believe in the major scale there is a half dim scale (b d f a), and he creates a fully dim by adding the lowered 6th degree (b d f a flat).
He goes on to say that this same set of notes can be used over Am7, but that most minor I would need different scale, since the 6th is usually natural and the seventh, if present, is raised as well.

In any case, does anyone know if when you're playing a tune in C major, and you are playing the G7 chord, that this theory equally applies? Or is it restricted to the I, ii, VI and vi? What about the iii Em7? Is it treated like the C chord too?


Recordings of my recent solo piano and piano/keyboard trio jazz standards.


Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2139857 08/27/13 08:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
Jazzwee,

You've explained it exactly 100% correctly and clearly. You can interweave those dim. triads into your lines as you suggest. If you look in the Omnibook or Coltrane transcriptions or a lot of other places this stuff is all over the place. So it just comes down to practice, as you say.

Here are some simple ways to practice the concept with single notes. So, with 3rds:

C E
D F
E G
F G#
G A
G# B
A C
B D
C E ... etc..

With triads (as triplets)

C E G
D F G#
E G A
F G# B
G A C <-- the intervals in the scale cause this to happen
G# B D
A C E
B D F
C E G and etc. ...

With 4-note chords (as 8th notes)

C E G A
D F G# B
E G A C
F G# B D
G A C E
G# B D F
A C E G
B D F G#
C E G A and etc.

To go a step further - The dim triads in that scale add up to a fully dim 7 chord. Meaning if you're in C major you've got a B fully dim 7 chord to weave in and out of. So improvise for a few beats with a major scale or an arpeggio (whatever), go into notes from the dim 7 chord and back to the maj scale. You can find this stuff all throughout the CP Omnibook.

Another step (out) -

A dim. scale fits over that dim 7 chord. Weave back and forth between a major scale and a dim scale so that both go over the major 7th chord. It's a very common Herbie Hancock idiom. A simple way to hear it is play a major seventh chord in your LH and in our RH play a 1/2 step - whole step dim scale starting on the 5th of the key. So C maj 7 with a G dim scale on top. The dim. scale can resolve to chord tones in the C maj7.

In classical theory (meaning the textbooks in university music courses) those dim. triads are pieces of a G7b9 chord. Classical theory texts do a lot of stuff with V7b9 -> I.

For example, just as V7b9 goes to I so VI7b9 goes to ii. In other words, EVERY note in a scale can be treated as a temporary tonic and preceded with a temporary dominant. The "classical" term for that is "secondary" dominant. (Sorry if this all known stuff!)

It's used all over jazz but with different names... one person calls it this and another calls it that. Some don't call it anything!

Something else with that BH scale is those dim triads add symmetry into the mix. So in a manner of speaking that "simple" BH scale is a cousin to all of the complex symmetric scales in Nicholas Slonimsky's Thesaurus of Scales (which Coltrane used to practice from ... I'm pretty sure Coltrane spent time around Barry Harris too ...)

There's an ebook for sale on BH's web site that explains a lot of his concept. It's also explained very well here (actually, I think better here than in the ebook)

http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/evolutionary-voicings-part-i

I'd say the strength of the BH approach is it's based on very simple stuff that can get extended and extended out and extended out. And it's fairly easy to apply. But because it's simple but leads to a lot there are a lot of different explanations about how this stuff works. But they all lead back or flow from that basic scale.

Hope this helps. Am looking forward to hearing stories from your BH workshop.

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2139962 08/28/13 12:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Mark, it is really great to know that there's applications to this from what's in the transcriptions. Is there a snippet that shows this?

I haven't looked at the scales beyond what's in the two scales in that article (Major and minor). Obviously I don't have to imagine that there will be diminished triads in a dominant since that is the simplest to figure out.

I've only seen this concept today but wow -- what a difference one note makes. Makes for an immediate interesting sound.

I was already planning to practice triads in the various modes of this scale.

Conceptually though, I've now seen several approaches to harmonic movement:

1. BH Six-Diminished Scales
2. Diminished Cycle Dominants (moving dominants in minor thirds)
3. McCoy Tyner movement in Fourths
4. And of course the original Dorian Mode - Diatonic Movement.
5. Chromatic movement

Anything else I haven't discovered yet?

Since I do a lot of modal tunes, this is great stuff to know. Should work nicely in ballads as well I presume.



Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
scepticalforumguy #2139969 08/28/13 12:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by scepticalforumguy

I believe in the major scale there is a half dim scale (b d f a), and he creates a fully dim by adding the lowered 6th degree (b d f a flat).
He goes on to say that this same set of notes can be used over Am7, but that most minor I would need different scale, since the 6th is usually natural and the seventh, if present, is raised as well.

In any case, does anyone know if when you're playing a tune in C major, and you are playing the G7 chord, that this theory equally applies? Or is it restricted to the I, ii, VI and vi? What about the iii Em7? Is it treated like the C chord too?


I know he has a different scale for dominants. And even without knowing what it is, there are alternative diminished patterns in a a dominant. Ergo the use of half-whole diminished scales and substitutions in minor 3rds.

So I would NOT use the BH major scale or minor scale for Dominants since it would be more limiting.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2140051 08/28/13 04:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
Jazzwee,

Originally Posted by jazzwee
Is there a snippet that shows this?


29 pages of (free) examples and a lot of explanation here

http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/evolutionary-voicings-part-i

the ebook BH sells from his site is 20 pages or so, maybe ore, with lots of great examples.

Here's are 2 BH transcriptions

http://www.freejazzlessons.com/wp-c...en-Dolphin-Street-Barry-Harris-Solo1.pdf

http://barryharristranscription.s3.amazonaws.com/BarryHarrisSoloonMoosetheMooche.pdf

(found them by googling "barry harris transcription which led to http://www.freejazzlessons.com/ ... to credit the original source)

Another way to explore the BH scale is

Play them in contrary motion - starting on different notes of the chord.

The simplest example:

RH ascending

C D E F G G# A B C

LH descending

C B A Ab G F E D C

-----

A 'random' example (not really random ..)

RH ascending

C D E F G G# A B C

LH (descending and beginning a 6th below the RH C)

E D C B A Ab G F E

-----

A lot of easy counterpoint and 'moving voice' stuff shows up in contrary motion.

... because the BH scale has 8 notes and the built-in symmetry (with dim. triads) it truly is one of the the-more-you-look-the-more-you-find kind of things. The dim. scale is in the same category. The chromatic scale is too but that's A LOT to sort through - which is where the Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns becomes handy - as a way to organise possibilities

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~gross/Slonimsky/Thesaurus.of.Scales.And.Melodic.Patterns.Nicolas.Slonimsky.pdf

The BH concept can just as well move outside of any one key (which you mentioned) ...

(ascending triads)

C E G E
D F Ab F
Eb G Bb G
F Ab B Ab
Gb Bb Db Bb
G# B D B
A C# E C#
B D F D
C E G E

If you can find them these two recordings (or maybe you already have them)

Barry Harris at the Jazz Workshop (w/Sam Jones and Louis Hayes)
Preminado (w/Elvin Jones)

are classic trio dates.

Hope this helps ... ... the BH workshop you're sponsoring is going to be amazing.





Last edited by Mark Polishook; 08/28/13 04:23 AM.
Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
chrisbell #2140407 08/28/13 06:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 822
D
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 822
Thought you mooks mite enjoy this new video..4 Improv Flows on ATTYA, the improv elements appear on the screen as they happen..

http://youtu.be/bdFgVOJzPAg

Dave F

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2140507 08/29/13 12:19 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Mark, thank you so much for all those resources. Am starting to dig into it right now. Lots to absorb here.


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
Dfrankjazz #2140508 08/29/13 12:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Originally Posted by Dfrank
Thought you mooks mite enjoy this new video..4 Improv Flows on ATTYA, the improv elements appear on the screen as they happen..

http://youtu.be/bdFgVOJzPAg

Dave F


Awesome Dave! Thanks for posting!


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2140975 08/29/13 08:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Simpler explanation (to me):

It's really part two of my original post.

http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2001-Feb-Minor%206th%20Diminished%20Scale%20Subs.pdf


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2140979 08/29/13 08:39 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
So, as it appeared at the beginning, the Major-6th-Diminished has the same notes as the Bebop Major scale and the other the Bebop Minor scale. The difference though is that Barry appears not to use the extra notes as passing tones but instead looks at it as additional harmony.

The part that I have to try is the discussion about substituting one 6th diminished scale for another since there are many overlapping the same chord.

If I understand it right, since B-7b5 = Dm, you can exchange the harmony. So either you look at it as Cm6 with it's corresponding diminished 6th scale, or Dm6 with it's corresponding 6th scale. These are the kinds of harmonic substitutions that I can't comprehend right now because I don't know what it sounds like.

This was beyond what I originally understood (i.e. the one extra note).

So according to this approach, you could play a E-7b5 A7b9 Dm (minor ii-V-i) as (Gm Bbm Dm). Does this mean Gm6, Bbm6, Dm6 too as subs? I think that's what it means. No idea what that sounds like right now. Will have to sit on the piano and noodle.

Someone butt in if I'm misuderstanding this.



Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2141001 08/29/13 09:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
I just tried it on the piano and I'm not sure what it means now.

So this is what I understand right now. Looking at a minor ii-V-I in Cm...

| D-7b5 G7b9 | Cm6 |

D-7b5 = Fm6
G7b9 = Abm6 or really Ab-(maj7)
Cm6 = Cm6 or really C-(maj7)

Aside from the change in Chord notation, the notes are the same. Yet it says "borrow harmony from diminished". What does that mean? All the notes in the scale are the same so at this point nothing is new. I wouldn't really be picking anything different here so far.

Now if I play it instead as:
Fm7
Abm7
Cm7
it sounds very different... But is that what it means?


Last edited by jazzwee; 08/29/13 09:22 PM.

Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2141004 08/29/13 09:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Mark, I just read your blog post #1

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/08/barry-harris-and-ideas.html#more

and that's very clear. On a major 6th diminished, you have the sound of V7b9 there. OK got that.

i.e., On C Major Scale, you have D F Ab which can be also considered a voicing for G7b9. So you can use that for Chord movement as well as a harmonic concept.

But in a minor 6th diminished, it's already Alt so not sure what it's adding there. Maybe I confused myself by starting with a minor 6th diminished.





Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2141198 08/30/13 04:49 AM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
Jazzwee,

I might not be understanding your comment. That said, the G# (or Ab) in the BH system in major and minor keys comes from adding it in as a passing tone between the 5th and 6th scales steps.

For the minor version the process is FIRST take the major scale, SECOND flat the 3rd, and THIRD put the G# (or Ab) in between the G and the A. Explained like this, the the G# (or Ab) aren't in the minor key to start.

Looking through the lens of a 7-note scale (traditional major and minor) gets you one perspective. Looking through the lens of an 8-note scale is a different view. With the BH scale that "different view" goes to a place overflowing with diminished chords and all possibilities they offer.


Hope this is helpful.




Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2141344 08/30/13 11:18 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
Mark, OK. I understand the minor tonic chord. Extra note. Since I already look at the tonic minor as Cm6 or C-(maj7) the rest of the notes are as before. This could be useful in tunes like Footprints.

Now what about the rest of the ii-V's in both cases?


Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2141421 08/30/13 01:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,119
Jazzwee,

the ii-Vs in major and minor

A visit to the tributary has it all: http://jazzworkshops.com/articles/evolutionary-voicings-part-i

Print it out and you're good to go!


Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2141931 08/31/13 05:46 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,121
J
jjo Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,121
Heard Barry Harris play in Chicago. Wish I could join you in la. He's a classic bebop player. P

Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players
jazzwee #2142641 09/02/13 01:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
jazzwee Offline OP
7000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
7000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 7,203
I think I'm getting the hang of the BH concept now. It really means easily visualizing all the applicable diminished chords and inversions at all times and then using it to voice lead with chords, or show movement with lines.

Not so hard to visualize since there are only 3 chords. But what is interesting is the voice leading sound. it sounds very inside actually which is nice to add to the other chord movements (like chromatic).

It's also nice to combine this with the other approach of substituting dominants along the diminished cycle as well. I can see they're related though.




Pianoclues.com for Beginners
My Jazz Blog
Hamburg Steinway O, Nord Electro 4 HP

Page 313 of 341 1 2 311 312 313 314 315 340 341

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
100,000!
---------------------
NEW! Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Wilh. Steinberg grand piano
by Guido, Roma - Italy - 01/16/21 04:47 PM
Searching for my first piano
by AndresVel - 01/16/21 03:34 PM
Tuning pin video
by accordeur - 01/16/21 03:22 PM
Concert pianist opintions regarding DP actions
by Marc345 - 01/16/21 02:50 PM
Size, placement, brand
by Anjru - 01/16/21 02:31 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics204,299
Posts3,047,439
Members100,079
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4