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#2139088 - 08/26/13 06:48 AM Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it?  
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Here is something I just stumbled across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77oauAJa29w

Any thoughts on this?

Extra note:

At the very end of the video you will see this:

"Finis an Underzog production"

"G-d bless our troops"

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#2139112 - 08/26/13 08:49 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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That was awful

#2139150 - 08/26/13 10:47 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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How about his interpretation of Clair de Lune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YotZsRbfdWU


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#2139155 - 08/26/13 10:58 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
Here is something I just stumbled across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77oauAJa29w

Any thoughts on this?

[...]


Any thoughts, you ask? Yes. What's the point of posting this? If we posted every bad performance we looked for and came across, there would be no room for anything else on Piano World.


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#2139177 - 08/26/13 11:50 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
[...]

Any thoughts on this?

[...]

"G-d bless our troops"

[...]


Well, I sense anger.

If you look at some of underzog's other videos, and also notice the date that this video was uploaded, you might get the idea that there is a political statement being made here.

My thought is: it isn't just another bad YouTube performance. OTOH, apart from an expression of anger with, possibly, an intent to demoralize, it's not all that effective. I'd be surprised if most people would stay with it until the end to catch the dig.

Tokyo Rose? Hanoi Hannah? Others?

What are your thoughts, pv88? What prompted you to post this as you did?

--Andy

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 08/26/13 11:53 AM.

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#2139178 - 08/26/13 11:58 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Besides that I agree with what everyone else said.....

I thought I'd skim through it (that's all I could bear, and just barely) to see if there's any resemblance to the Horowitz -- and there is (barely). Some of the figures and musical gestures suggest that there's a familiarity with the Horowitz and some takeoff from it going on. But as for 99% of what he's doing, I have no idea.

#2139190 - 08/26/13 12:14 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Umm, is this guy serious? Looks like he's literally smacking the keys with an open hand.

#2139195 - 08/26/13 12:31 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Whether it was intended in all serious, in jest, or in politics, it was poorly done. Based on other videos in his portfolio, I have to believe it was performed in earnest, but like others have said, I don't see the point in commenting negatively on performances for the sake of commenting negatively. I'd like to take some time to sit down with the guy and honestly talk about the piano, but to brazenly attack a performance is, in my opinion, poor taste. So, I'm not sure what we're supposed to be commenting on, really...


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2139199 - 08/26/13 12:39 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Derulux]  
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Originally Posted by Derulux
....I'd like to take some time to sit down with the guy and honestly talk....

Really??
I don't think I would, and I suspect you wouldn't care for it too much either.

#2139203 - 08/26/13 12:49 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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I think that pv88 is simply too shocked that something like this exist! guess what: It does.

Now we all need to get over this and find something useful to do with our time!

#2139222 - 08/26/13 01:33 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by Derulux
....I'd like to take some time to sit down with the guy and honestly talk....

Really??
I don't think I would, and I suspect you wouldn't care for it too much either.

Probably depends on how willing the guy was to openly and honestly discuss the topic... if he thinks he's great, then you're right; probably not. smile


Every day we are afforded a new chance. The problem with life is not that you run out of chances. In the end, what you run out of are days.
#2139237 - 08/26/13 02:18 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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It reminds me of this video titled "My incredible playing of Liszt legend no. 2":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlMux_TVKdw

M.

#2139238 - 08/26/13 02:24 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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He did this Chopin one as well!

The description reads "This is my first recording of my performance on YouTube, many more great performances to come from such composers as Mendelssohns, Schumann, Liszt, Grieg, Rachmaninov etc."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f_BBRQehGE

M.

#2139240 - 08/26/13 02:34 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Michael Sayers]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
He did this Chopin one as well!

The description reads "This is my first recording of my performance on YouTube, many more great performances to come from such composers as Mendelssohns, Schumann, Liszt, Grieg, Rachmaninov etc."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f_BBRQehGE

M.

Chopin is turning in his grave. This is an insult to the composer and the work. He should be shot.





well, maybe that's a bit harsh. grin Just a bit though.


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2139251 - 08/26/13 02:46 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
He should be shot.


I would erase that comment.

#2139268 - 08/26/13 03:15 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
He should be shot.
I would erase that comment.

I agree, but I think it's almost closer than wanting to talk to him. ha

P.S. I think we can safely assume Poly wasn't being literal. smile

#2139274 - 08/26/13 03:22 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Why do we need this "trash" here?


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#2139281 - 08/26/13 03:31 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
He should be shot.
I would erase that comment.


P.S. I think we can safely assume Poly wasn't being literal. smile


But what matters is what the NSA thinks. Similar comments under similar circumstances have had people charged with "making terroristic threats" and sent to prison. Obviously the chances of Poly's comment being seen by anyone important and then having it deemed terroristic is slim to nothing, but I don't take my chances with that kind of thing.

#2139301 - 08/26/13 04:15 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: JoelW]  
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Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
He should be shot.
I would erase that comment.


P.S. I think we can safely assume Poly wasn't being literal. smile


But what matters is what the NSA thinks. Similar comments under similar circumstances have had people charged with "making terroristic threats" and sent to prison. Obviously the chances of Poly's comment being seen by anyone important and then having it deemed terroristic is slim to nothing, but I don't take my chances with that kind of thing.

Well, I can't really erase it now that it's been quoted so many times, can I?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2139321 - 08/26/13 05:08 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Mark_C
Originally Posted by JoelW
Originally Posted by Polyphonist
He should be shot.
I would erase that comment.


P.S. I think we can safely assume Poly wasn't being literal. smile


But what matters is what the NSA thinks. Similar comments under similar circumstances have had people charged with "making terroristic threats" and sent to prison. Obviously the chances of Poly's comment being seen by anyone important and then having it deemed terroristic is slim to nothing, but I don't take my chances with that kind of thing.

Well, I can't really erase it now that it's been quoted so many times, can I?


I would guess from the context that it means "shot on film" . . . still a bit nebulous, and yet I can't think of any verbs "shot" could plausibly have been a mistyping of . . . if anything comes of it Polyphonist you can counter with psychological damage caused by having heard the particular Chopin recording, and claim insanity defence if applicable, et c.

M.

#2139326 - 08/26/13 05:22 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Extra note:

Everyone needs to listen carefully to the playing itself as you will see that he follows the original transcription throughout this performance and it is not all just a complete mess of notes. The pianist has done this deliberately from what I can hear and this leaves us with:

1) Was he poking fun at the music just like "BachMach2?"

2) Was he just angry at something else in life as we can see that he gives reference (with the final info at the end) to being an ex-veteran, and, may have a disability, or, handicap?

I know of one other pianist, Joe Townley, who has posted videos of himself playing even though he had serious physical issues with his hands.

3) He appears to be intent upon putting dissonance into the music.

Here are other pieces that are posted in the user's videos:

https://www.youtube.com/user/underzog/videos

[Scroll down to see all of the videos, above.]

One in particular seems to be evident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvvVLTzeIQg

And, here's the family video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EApd0R8J1Ls

It speaks for itself.

#2139356 - 08/26/13 06:35 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
Extra note:

Everyone needs to listen carefully to the playing itself as you will see that he follows the original transcription throughout this performance and it is not all just a complete mess of notes.


I don't think so. I think it would be best to not listen to another note. I heard what he did the first time.

#2139428 - 08/26/13 10:27 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
[...] I thought I'd skim through it (that's all I could bear, and just barely) to see if there's any resemblance to the Horowitz -- and there is (barely). [...]


I am using my human prerogative to change my answer, and agree with Mark. Only, I didn't skim. I studied and compared. And so, I would say, there is MORE than a bare resemblance to Horowitz in underzog's "performance." I think this is high comedy, of the kind that takes specific knowledge to enjoy. I still sense anger (and a lot of it), but I also sense that he is making fun of Horowitz, big time. I mean, listen to the first few lines of this, below-- (chord at 0:05!?! and following crazy ) :



I also surmise there is a layer of cultural humor that escapes me, being a Gentile. Not that I don't *want* to understand--as I am an appreciator of stories such as "The Feather Merchants and other tales from the fools of Chelm"...

grin

So, no. It's not trash. It's parody.

Really.

It is.

And maybe even satire, if you add the anger element to it.

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 08/26/13 11:04 PM.

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#2139440 - 08/26/13 11:04 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Perhaps on a more positive note here is a very solid performance of the Horowitz Stars & Stripes by pianist Florian Wolf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTN4NkR5Pik

And, here is the pianist's link to a free score:

http://www.thepianopage.com/scores/various/Stars%20and%20Stripes.pdf

#2139448 - 08/26/13 11:24 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
Here is something I just stumbled across:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77oauAJa29w

Any thoughts on this?


A faithful rendition of the little known arrangement of "Stars and Stripes" by Charles Ives.


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#2139451 - 08/26/13 11:30 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
Perhaps on a more positive note here is a very solid performance....

I was interested to check it out because I've loved the arrangement for decades, long before I imagined there'd be a chance to get hold of attempted versions of the score, and when I realized it I immediately went and learned it. So let's see....

I agree that it's "solid," but not particularly great -- too "dainty," and with some phrasings that are idiosyncratic and debatable (if not "wrong"), plus quite a few places where the tempo is suddenly compromised for no reason except that the passage is a little harder.

But I'll say this: he plays it 100% cleanly, which is more than I ever did. grin

#2139452 - 08/26/13 11:34 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Mark_C]  
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Originally Posted by Mark_C
[...] But I'll say this: he plays it 100% cleanly, which is more than I ever did. grin


Or, more than Horowitz ever did, either, apparently. crazy


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#2139454 - 08/26/13 11:47 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Cinnamonbear]  
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Or, more than Horowitz ever did, either, apparently. crazy

Well yeah -- I almost said that too, but didn't want to make it sound like I think him and me play alike. ha


Please nobody tell me about grammar. grin

#2139462 - 08/27/13 12:27 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Here's an impressive display by the British pianist, Freddy Kempf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF0o08YXu4o

Looks like he attempts a little too much speed in the the 16th-note passages and therefore misses a few notes throughout although he is the only one I have heard play this with a fair amount of risk and the crashing basses in the opening section are executed with flair.

No one is going match Horowitz for those crashing basses as this is partly due to the older recording equipment which couldn't handle the full range of sound like our recordings do, today.

My favorite example of the legendary sonorities is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N04Y_9bee4

Note the "whew" at the end as he walks off stage!

#2139526 - 08/27/13 04:14 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Originally Posted by pv88
No one is going match Horowitz for those crashing basses as this is partly due to the older recording equipment which couldn't handle the full range of sound like our recordings do, today.


Did you read this somewhere or is it your own conclusion? I was with the impression that Horowitz's tone was "real", i.e. not an artifact of recording processes!


M.

#2139548 - 08/27/13 05:49 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Michael Sayers]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by pv88
No one is going match Horowitz for those crashing basses as this is partly due to the older recording equipment which couldn't handle the full range of sound like our recordings do, today.


Did you read this somewhere or is it your own conclusion? I was with the impression that Horowitz's tone was "real", i.e. not an artifact of recording processes!


M.


Horowitz made plenty of recordings (live & studio) in his old age on superb digital equipment on the DG label, and all show the same characteristics of crashing bass octaves etc, which is a combination of the way his piano is voiced, and his own playing.

The current issue of BBC Music Magazine (August 2013) contains a 'free' 75-minute CD of his London concert from 1982, digitally recorded by the BBC. The Chopin Ballade No.1 and Rachmaninoff's Sonata No.2 show those qualities very well.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
#2139683 - 08/27/13 02:39 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Michael Sayers]  
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by pv88
No one is going match Horowitz for those crashing basses as this is partly due to the older recording equipment which couldn't handle the full range of sound like our recordings do, today.


Did you read this somewhere or is it your own conclusion? I was with the impression that Horowitz's tone was "real", i.e. not an artifact of recording processes!


Okay, it looks like I may have not been correct about the older equipment contributing to Horowitz's sound as I probably did read this somewhere and the info was not accurate.

#2140068 - 08/28/13 06:45 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Here is a website which is still hosting the majority of the "Horowitz Scores" realizations:

1) http://vkgfx.com/scores/horowitz/

And, here is a great companion site of miscellaneous scores, A - Z:

2) http://vkgfx.com/scores/

I would recommend making copies of all the pieces you like as of now as there is no telling as to when these sites (especially the "Horowitz Scores") could get taken down.

I already have printed out paper copies of every Horowitz piece in the first link as I did this over a long period of time when the scores were originally hosted by Dr. Makoto Natsui, quite a few years ago.

The original site by Dr. Natsui had everything in the above two links and a lot of other pieces, listed by various categories such as "composer," "arranger," and so forth. It was titled:

Virtuoso Piano Transcription

The two links above only represent a smaller portion of everything that was listed/included in the original site.

Does anyone remember how impressive it was?

#2140094 - 08/28/13 08:05 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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I remember Dr. Natsui's website - it was massive and was the "IMSLP" before IMSLP arrived (so much for any need of "Musica Obscura", anyone else here ever receive that press' catalogues? as a little child that press' publications had me waiting for the mail man excitedly on many occasions!).

I see the Thalberg Fantasie Op. 33 with the big ending still is there . . . just look at the last five pages!

http://vkgfx.com/scores/thalberg/moses_fantasy.pdf

People complain about me as a composer using 128th notes when the music is half that tempo, maybe I grew up looking at too many of these obscure scores!


M.

#2140102 - 08/28/13 08:27 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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In one of his letters Liszt writes about Clara Schumann being more inventive and meritorious in one composition than all of the Thalberg Fantasies put together, I'm one of those persons who isn't so sure about this compositional assessment.

Raymond's Lewenthal's recording of that Op. 33 Fantasie is on youtube . . . maybe someone else here will agree that this music has its good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_3ob4pu0iE


M.

#2140355 - 08/28/13 05:33 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Michael Sayers]  
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Raymond's Lewenthal's recording of that Op. 33 Fantasie is on youtube . . . maybe someone else here will agree that this music has its good points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_3ob4pu0iE


@Michael,

I am glad that you have mentioned Raymond Lewenthal as there is absolutely no doubt he was one of the greatest performers of Alkan's music and here is an excellent example of that:

In two (2) parts:

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukvRssK_wpI

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQWmeVrUECA

Lewenthal not only had an incredible technique but it always served the music at hand first and foremost without question.

I particularly like the "fugue" section before the final return of the climactic theme - it's Lewenthal at his very best!

#2140362 - 08/28/13 06:02 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Stars and Stripes with strategic additions by Benjamin Grosvenor and friend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPkNbuaSAg

Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/29/13 06:21 PM.
#2140519 - 08/29/13 01:48 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Michael Sayers Offline
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Originally Posted by pv88

I am glad that you have mentioned Raymond Lewenthal as there is absolutely no doubt he was one of the greatest performers of Alkan's music . . .


Raymond Lewenthal might have been led by Nyiregyhazi into Alkan. After one of Nyiregyhazi's performances in the 1940s Raymond got to hear Nyiregyhazi play the entire first movement of Alkan's Concerto with a power and level of technique he would never be able to equal - this is according to the words of a rather long monograph left behind by Raymond of recollections of Nyiregyhazi's performances in the 1940s.

I've never heard any recordings of Alkan, probably Lewenthal's are first rate, my personal inclination is have my ideas on the interpretation of Alkan totally uninfluenced by any of the recordings.


M.


#2140892 - 08/29/13 06:09 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pianoloverus]  
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Stars and Stripes with strategic addition by Benjamin Grosvenor and friend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPkNbuaSAg


Have already seen this one - thanks for posting it!

Very funny stuff, indeed.

#2140900 - 08/29/13 06:36 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Michael Sayers]  
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Raymond Lewenthal might have been led by Nyiregyhazi into Alkan. After one of Nyiregyhazi's performances in the 1940s Raymond got to hear Nyiregyhazi play the entire first movement of Alkan's Concerto with a power and level of technique he would never be able to equal - this is according to the words of a rather long monograph left behind by Raymond of recollections of Nyiregyhazi's performances in the 1940s.


As for Erwin (or, Ervin) Nyiregyhazi, he was a true genius unlike any other pianist in the great long history of musicians as his playing style was unique and there was unbridled raw power displayed in many performances. He also chose much slower tempi in many pieces although his balance of timing and proportion is otherworldly perfect as for the musical ideas that he wants to project to the listener.

Here is a new video of a very rare live concert:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcqb4VaAq3I

His sound was incomparable!

#2140902 - 08/29/13 06:43 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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Polyphonist Online content
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Originally Posted by pv88
[quote=Michael Sayers]As for Erwin (or, Ervin) Nyiregyhazi, he was a true genius unlike any other pianist in the great long history of musicians.

This is a VERY controversial statement. What makes you think that only he was a genius, and Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, etc, were not?


Regards,

Polyphonist
#2140907 - 08/29/13 06:56 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Polyphonist]  
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by pv88
[quote=Michael Sayers]As for Erwin (or, Ervin) Nyiregyhazi, he was a true genius unlike any other pianist in the great long history of musicians.

This is a VERY controversial statement. What makes you think that only he was a genius, and Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Horowitz, etc, were not?


Please note I am not making a comparison of talent/genius as you implied with your question, above.

Let me clarify this by saying it is his unique playing style, choice of tempi, and sound, which makes him stand out from the crowd. No one else "plays" like he does.

#2140908 - 08/29/13 06:59 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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I think you're reading it wrong....the word unlike is meaning to be a unique genius in his own right, rather than being a genius and everybody else ordinary.

Edit: pv88 beat me to it.

Last edited by Kuanpiano; 08/29/13 06:59 PM.

Working on:
Chopin - Nocturne op. 48 no.1
Debussy - Images Book II

#2140912 - 08/29/13 07:04 PM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: Kuanpiano]  
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pv88 Offline
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Originally Posted by Kuanpiano
I think you're reading it wrong....the word unlike is meaning to be a unique genius in his own right, rather than being a genius and everybody else ordinary.


Thanks, as that is exactly what I intended to convey, in words.

#2141659 - 08/31/13 04:06 AM Re: Horowitz: The Stars & Stripes Forever - or, is it? [Re: pv88]  
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pv88 Offline
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Here's a short excerpt of my own playing (at the Clavinova CLP-480) of "The Stars and Stripes Forever" (Sousa-Horowitz) as I made use of the free score posted earlier in the thread:

https://app.box.com/s/33352vxz78p98bvrojio

Extra note:

I have been having an issue with sensitivity in my index finger of the R.H. so I am not going to play more than the 20 measures given, as this is due to a lot of clicking of the mouse and typing at the computer.

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