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I'm really tempted to make up some bumper stickers that read: My Glenn Gould could've beaten your Van Cliburn at the 1958 Tchaikovsky Competition!!
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And, contrary to perceptions, Gould loved the public's adulation. He thrived on it and milked his excentricities to their fullest for public consumption. He was not as naive about people's attraction to genius kooks as one might think. Where are you getting this information from? I'm curious...
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They are two COMPLETELY different artists!!!!!
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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They are two COMPLETELY different artists!!!!! No, they perform pretty much the same way, now!
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They are two COMPLETELY different artists!!!!! Exactly. Comparisons are useless. Had it been the Bach/Schoenberg competition, I might have put money on Gould. But it wasn't. Their repertoires were as different as night and day, and their personalities were equally different.
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Perhaps Gould would have been the Pogorelich of that hypothetical competition.
Personally I don't find these imaginary comparisons all that interesting - no offense meant, of course.
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Perhaps Gould would have been the Pogorelich of that hypothetical competition. That is a perfect and much more succinct way of saying what I was trying to say.
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And, contrary to perceptions, Gould loved the public's adulation. He thrived on it and milked his excentricities to their fullest for public consumption. He was not as naive about people's attraction to genius kooks as one might think. Where are you getting this information from? I'm curious... From the documentary. My comment is a compendium of remarks made about Gould's character in this respect throughout the docu. In regards to others' views, opinions let me say: Gould didn't just play Bach while he was in Russia. He played at least two of the Beethoven concertos, No.'s 1 and 2 and there are video clips of them. There might even be his entire tour lying on videos somewhere in the archives. What a treasure find that would be! What was brought out in the docu in regard to his performances in Russia was not necessarily how he played Bach but just how he played, period. That peculiar staccato detached style in Bach combined with the machine-like accuracy (you never heard a mistake) and the cerebral working of his mind were in plain sight and I think this is what bowled the audiences over. During his first concert the hall was about 20% filled. By the start of the 2nd half it was packed to capacity because, according to Ashkenazy everyone was rushing to the phones at intermission saying, "Get down here and buy a ticket. You've just got to hear this guy!" There's ample evidence in the non-Bach videos that he possessed the performing capacity to make excellent showings of non-Rachmaninoff & Tchaikovsky literature. Personally I can think of no Tchaikovsky or Cliburn competition that was won with a non-Rachmaninoff/Tchaikovsky concerto and I think that's a crying shame, not to mention a stain on the honor of the music industry itself. If such a win exists please let me know. I'd be shocked beyond words.
Last edited by Joey Townley; 08/24/13 05:49 PM.
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In regards to others' views, opinions let me say: Gould didn't just play Bach while he was in Russia. No one said he did, but from what I've read it was his playing of Bach and his playing of composers rarely heard in Russia up to that point that garnered attention and caused a sensation. He played very little Romantic by this point in his life music and this is why it would be so difficult to win a competition like the Tchaikovsky. As far as Tchaikovsky Competition winners only playing Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov concerti, I'm not sure, but it may well be a requirement of the competition. I'm virtually certain that in the solo parts of the competition some Tchaikovsky works are required.
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In regards to others' views, opinions let me say: Gould didn't just play Bach while he was in Russia. No one said he did, but from what I've read it was his playing of Bach and his playing of composers rarely heard in Russia up to that point that garnered attention and caused a sensation. He played very little Romantic by this point in his life music and this is why it would be so difficult to win a competition like the Tchaikovsky. As far as Tchaikovsky Competition winners only playing Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninov concerti, I'm not sure, but it may well be a requirement of the competition. I'm virtually certain that in the solo parts of the competition some Tchaikovsky works are required. He may not have been playing much of the Romantic stuff but he certainly had it in his repertoire. A piece of conversation related to the Russian tour appeared in which he agreed with the interviewer, who had said, "You knew a lot of Chopin and Liszt but I imagine you weren't playing it." Gould: "Yes, that's right." But I'll ask the question again for those who might have missed it: has a concerto other the Tchaikovsky 1st/Rachmaninoff 2nd & 3rd ever won a pianist 1st prize in the Tchaikovsky/Cliburn competitions? I know that Barry Douglas took 1st prize in the Tchaikovsky and the Brahms 1st was the one he lost the Cliburn with and I'm almost certain it was the Rachmaninoff 2nd which won him the Tchaikovsky gold a year later, but I could be wrong.
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Well, first you'd have to define musicianship (which I know has been getting a workout elsewhere), although I think it would be hard to find a definition by which many people would agree with that. In fact, if anything Gould, for all his gifts, probably fares relatively poorly, not well, on common concepts of "musicianship." Yeesh. I can see someone questioning Gould's choices and taste. I guess I'd need to know what you mean by common concept of musicianship, but I'd say that Gould's musicianship was as good as it gets. Most concepts of "musicianship," I think, are based heavily on whatever principles and practices are the norms of the time. I hardly need to tell you that Gould didn't particularly observe those (and I think we can say also that this is a lot of why HOROWITZ has been considered not very "musical" by some people). Gould's occasional very unusual tempos (sometimes purposely so, for unusualness's own sake -- he said so) and his unusual and often idiosyncratic articulations and phrasings are the main things that I think would have given him a hard time on being considered particularly high on "musicianship" -- I mean on the scale of top professional pianists, which was what we were talking about. There are also a lot of specifics we could add to those general things, like how he played Chopin sort of as though it were Bach, with the accompaniment notes almost as prominent as the melody as though they constituted an equal voice. Many professional musicians of that time, I think, would have considered that pretty unmusical for someone of his level. Don't get me wrong: I didn't mean at all that I don't regard Gould very highly, or that I don't consider him extremely "musical" -- I don't discriminate against "doing it differently" (which Gould eventually said was the only reason to play anything) and I sort of even prefer it; all I was saying was what I was saying. After all, on another thread a couple of weeks ago, I said this (i.e. put him solidly among my "10 greatest pianists" of the 20th century).
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He may not have been playing much of the Romantic stuff but he certainly had it in his repertoire. A piece of conversation related to the Russian tour appeared in which he agreed with the interviewer, who had said, "You knew a lot of Chopin and Liszt but I imagine you weren't playing it." Gould: "Yes, that's right." Gould may have had Romantic pieces in his repertoire from studying them at a very young age, but he played very little Romantic music once he became well known probably because he disliked most of it. So if he mentions having a lot of Chopin and Liszt "in his repertoire", he may well be talking about piece learned when extremely young. Of his 62 recordings listed in the Wiki article, only around four were by Romantic composers. Performing works one dislikes rarely results in a good performance. Many people seem to like Gould's recording of Brahms Intermezzi but IMO that was kind of a one off for him.
Last edited by pianoloverus; 08/24/13 09:23 PM.
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Gould played the Brahms First Concerto.
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Gould played the Brahms First Concerto. Well actually the conductor didn't think so.
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Old man, maybe not musical ability, but in how Gould used his musicianship. Often times not very tasteful at all, in my opinion, though Gould was so good, he could have played more conventionally. He just chose not to.
I find him fascinating, but that's about it... Not a personal fan past that.
Funny you say that - I am a fan, and IMO he would have been amazing at Alkan, and more than once I've tried to imagine what he would have done with different pieces by Alkan.
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Gould played the Brahms First Concerto. And also that competition staple, Ravel's La Valse.
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and more than once I've tried to imagine what he would have done with different pieces by Alkan. Like the fugue at the end of 30 ans? Kind of seems right up his alley...
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and more than once I've tried to imagine what he would have done with different pieces by Alkan. Like the fugue at the end of 30 ans? Kind of seems right up his alley... Exactly. And he might have done something really interesting with the strange atmosphere of the Sonatine, for another example of what I've imagined him doing. And, based on his forays into the Liszt-Beethoven transcriptions, I've always regretted that he didn't do the Alkan version of the first movement of the C minor Beethoven concerto. Can you imagine? My mind reels at the thought, in a good way.
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I adore all Gould did (yes, even his Chopin ); I'm always shocked, still!, when I see opinions on this forum that range from calling his interpretations anything from untasteful to downright perverse...um...Gould brought it all to life, didn't he? Whatever he played he played as an organic entity and he wasn't afraid of upsetting anyone with an unusual take on a piece; he let the music breath a new configuration but, I think, it was never weirdness for weirdness's sake...I mean, um, he may have injected atypical elements into a piece, but only to get people to actually *listen to* rather than *hear* the music...but he never (*sigh* in my opinion ) pushed a piece to the point that its relative and tied meaning snapped; the first movement of the moonlight sonata is a perfect example...I mean, faster than most, less dynamic range and certainly less hesitancy...but still perfectly in line with the soul of the piece. Um...Alkan...as it is, there aren't nearly enough people who've recorded Alkan, but I think with a dose of Gould that nowadays there'd be hundreds, if not thousands, more people interested than there currently are. The Liszt-Beethoven transcriptions are a good example, in my opinion, of course, of his ability to play romantic repertoire...whilst keeping it still very Gouldy...um...*a lot* of Alkan, if I really think about it, straddles some of those same grand soundscapes as those transcriptions (I hope you shan't disagree ). He just...oh I don't know Alkan, you really wouldn't have heard it quite the same way, would you? But then, I think, that applies to the vast majority of composers I can think of...the Russian avant-garde? Crikey...imagine his Zaderatsky, or Obukhov...and imagine the Rochberg sonata-fantasia! Pfft Um...I *really* hope we have another Gould...just...I'll keep on waiting... Xxx
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Gould played all sorts of stuff privately, like Au bord d'une source, Chopin's F# Impromptu, etc. His later handling of romantic music is a bit like his trying to square the circle (except Brahms), but back when his blood was still running hot, he was a beast and would have shocked the Russians with Chopin just as with Bach and Webern: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgEaQo_7Bu8
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