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Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Michael Sayers #2137623 08/23/13 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
It looks like session #1 will be:

Steve Chandler - America is Beautiful and others

John Carollo - the Miniatures or Piano Suite IX

Joel Wagner - Miniature No. 2 and others

Stefan Abels - Quintenräume

Nikolas Sideris - ?????

It is up to you Nikolas . . . even that short one would be very nice, it is tremendously appealing and I would love to do it straight from the score and heart.

M.


Michael, see also the work of Maxwell Janis. He pops in at Piano World from time to time, usually to introduce a new composition.

--Andy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2137631 08/23/13 09:59 AM
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I very very rarely use pedal markings! Reason is that I simply find it too personal. And in fact I rarely use fingerings in my works, except Sketch Music (this piece is from that collection) which is for educational purposes.

The only reason to add pedal markings would be if the music would be altered greatly from the use of a different pedalling. And that happens rather rarely. I mean how many different ways can one pedal a Chopin Waltz? I know that you can do it the 'wrong' way, but in the end it's on-off on every bar pretty much (<- and now stores will torch me in heck for this! grin).

_____________

On the ditsotred Romance, it IS a romance, and it is distorted with a few typos in the title. So I guess it kinda invited anything...

_____________

But if you REALLY want to have fun, have a listen to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRZowK5L84

hahaha! (and, yes, I like it, and yes, he got permission to do this)...

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
fnork #2137662 08/23/13 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by fnork
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
All I can tell you is that Earl Wild, Glenn Gould, Jorge Bolet, as well as the students of Zygmundt Stojowski, Miecyslaw Horszowski, Jesus Maria San Roma, Marguerite Long, Carl Friedberg, and Alfred Corot (to name a few) were not taught that way.

They were not taught WHAT way?


"Any notion that the composer's markings were to be strictly adhered to comes from a late-twentieth-century aesthetic which has little to do with the aesthetics of previous eras. For copious examples that support the above please see my book Off the Record: Performing Practices in Romantic Piano Playing (OUP, 2012)."

"Louis -

The only thing he states that I question is his reference to a "late-twentieth-century aesthetic." My perception is that strict adherence to composer's markings comes from an aesthetic that was very much in place prior to 1950."


What way? - that way, the Urtext approach, for those of us who have been paying attention. And, one more thing.

What have I ever posted on this or any other forum that gave anyone the impression that I am involved in any kind of popularity contest?

My goal has always and only been to expose those who had no knowledge of the original method of piano performance to that school of playing.

Carey's and Kreisler's post alone have made it more than worthwhile.

Finally, the Cinnamonbear recording sounds to me like something you would hear when you get put on hold when you call your local pharmacy. It is definitely not my cup of tea when it comes to utilizing arpeggiation.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Louis Podesta #2137672 08/23/13 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
[...] Finally, the Cinnamonbear recording sounds to me like something you would hear when you get put on hold when you call your local pharmacy. [...]


To me, it sounds like the way I would *feel* after taking what the pharmacy had to dispense. Definitely ditsotred.

But that's another discussion altogether... smile


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Cinnamonbear #2137752 08/23/13 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear

Michael, see also the work of Maxwell Janis. He pops in at Piano World from time to time, usually to introduce a new composition.

--Andy


Hi Andy,

With all this music I think I am going to end up needing to hire a "performer's assistant" to transport beside me a cache of "Maxwell" coffee (no, wait, in Sweden it is Gevalia!).

(yes, his music is superb)

M.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Cinnamonbear #2137769 08/23/13 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
[...] Finally, the Cinnamonbear recording sounds to me like something you would hear when you get put on hold when you call your local pharmacy. [...]


To me, it sounds like the way I would *feel* after taking what the pharmacy had to dispense. Definitely ditsotred.

But that's another discussion altogether... smile
I don't know Louis if you're aware that this piece was one of my own compositions... Your description could be slightly insulting, but I don't really care all that much.

After all, I'm exposing myself with these works to the general public, so I'm open to all opinions!

Same as posting here! wink

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Louis Podesta #2137815 08/23/13 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta

What have I ever posted on this or any other forum that gave anyone the impression that I am involved in any kind of popularity contest?

My goal has always and only been to expose those who had no knowledge of the original method of piano performance to that school of playing.

Carey's and Kreisler's post alone have made it more than worthwhile.

If that's all you want then mission accomplished, why do you stick around? It seems to me you stick around because you want to change hearts and minds, but that's a bigger task which requires,... um ... social skills.


Steve Chandler
composer/amateur pianist

stevechandler-music.com
http://www.soundcloud.com/pantonality
http://www.youtube.com/pantonality
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2137833 08/23/13 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler

If that's all you want then mission accomplished, why do you stick around? It seems to me you stick around because you want to change hearts and minds, but that's a bigger task which requires,... um ... social skills.


I am doing so because when this story is finally published/broadcast just maybe one or two of the 50,000 piano teachers in this country, especially those from academia, are going to have something to say about the subject. In addition, the over 20 million people who play, and the several million who study this instrument are also going to have a lot of questions.

Therefore, this experience has been and will be invaluable to me when that happens.

Thank you. I really mean it.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Louis Podesta #2137868 08/23/13 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta

I am doing so because when this story is finally published/broadcast just maybe one or two of the 50,000 piano teachers in this country, especially those from academia, are going to have something to say about the subject. In addition, the over 20 million people who play, and the several million who study this instrument are also going to have a lot of questions.

Therefore, this experience has been and will be invaluable to me when that happens.

Thank you. I really mean it.


Nyiregyhazi was published and broadcast in the 1970s - there has been no 19th-century pianism revival as a result. His view was that after him and going forward all pianists who play with extravagant freedom from the score would have to be amateurs. On what basis can you realistically predict and plan for an alternate outcome? Especially as in 2013, aren't the barriers to any such pianist advancing toward a professional career going to be significant? Maybe a pianist like that can find a local niche and a happy life somewhere and be either accepted or somehow tolerated - I just don't see the odds of anything more than that being very high, and if such a pianist were to have such a niche the last thing he might want to do is start ruffling feathers in other cities and communities.

M.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2137906 08/23/13 06:25 PM
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Michael:

Thank you very much for your insightful input, as it was very well thought out. However, these posts do not regard my personal performance goals.

They are those 20 million players out there, most of whom do not play in anything remotely close to a Urtext Classical style. These dear folks love the piano, and they live in a world, as my late father did, which is of a more popular genre. Although, and never forget, they started out the same way you and I did.

Accordingly, I do not have to wish, hope, or coerce anyone to listen to and take for their own individual uses the beautiful pianism of the 19th century. They will most assuredly do it on their own.

Just turn on a radio, or listen to your iTunes and determine for yourself what style of arpeggiation, melody enhancement, and rhythmic freedom they truly love, just like they did over 100 years ago when that same style was the popular music of its day.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Nikolas #2137977 08/23/13 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
[...] Finally, the Cinnamonbear recording sounds to me like something you would hear when you get put on hold when you call your local pharmacy. [...]


To me, it sounds like the way I would *feel* after taking what the pharmacy had to dispense. Definitely ditsotred.

But that's another discussion altogether... smile
I don't know Louis if you're aware that this piece was one of my own compositions... Your description could be slightly insulting, but I don't really care all that much.

After all, I'm exposing myself with these works [...]


I think that one of the most amazing, profound, and delicate things about composing and performing (or having writing published or artwork displayed) is the vulnerability (on the part of the artist) involved in putting the art forward.

I hope I didn't insult you, Nikolas, with my reply to Louis's response. You know I'm a fan. I was trying to split the difference by being diplomatic. crazy


I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Louis Podesta #2137996 08/23/13 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta


Accordingly, I do not have to wish, hope, or coerce anyone to listen to and take for their own individual uses the beautiful pianism of the 19th century. They will most assuredly do it on their own.



Then leave it alone. It's not like we didn't know about those expressive devices, because EVERYONE is aware of it, so maybe there is a reason why people choose not to play like that anymore.

Because, as your friend said, it's up to the pianist's taste. And, like I've said before, surprise - taste has changed with time. As it happens... all the time. People just don't play like that anymore, and it doesn't have to be a bad thing. Play however you like. But don't say people like Fleisher or Nel don't know [censored]. You're just mad because they don't play that way. But they don't WANT to! Just like the majority of people don't want to! I don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.



"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Cinnamonbear #2138044 08/24/13 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
I think that one of the most amazing, profound, and delicate things about composing and performing (or having writing published or artwork displayed) is the vulnerability (on the part of the artist) involved in putting the art forward.

I hope I didn't insult you, Nikolas, with my reply to Louis's response. You know I'm a fan. I was trying to split the difference by being diplomatic. crazy
Andy,

Don't worry at all. I wasn't insulted by anything you did. And you were being fine!

I did feel a bit weird with Louis comment but after all it's obvious that he's here to talk, rather than listen (thus the total silence on his part on my posts)...

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Louis Podesta #2138063 08/24/13 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
Michael:

Thank you very much for your insightful input, as it was very well thought out. However, these posts do not regard my personal performance goals.

They are those 20 million players out there, most of whom do not play in anything remotely close to a Urtext Classical style. These dear folks love the piano, and they live in a world, as my late father did, which is of a more popular genre. Although, and never forget, they started out the same way you and I did.

Accordingly, I do not have to wish, hope, or coerce anyone to listen to and take for their own individual uses the beautiful pianism of the 19th century. They will most assuredly do it on their own.

Just turn on a radio, or listen to your iTunes and determine for yourself what style of arpeggiation, melody enhancement, and rhythmic freedom they truly love, just like they did over 100 years ago when that same style was the popular music of its day.


Hi Louis, music history seems to never repeat itself, so when the next big shake up in the world of classical music arrives anything is possible but I don't think a return to a prior era in music is very likely.

I am self-taught and did not begin as an Urtextian. When I first found out about Nyiregyhazi and played one of the LPs for my mother she became genuinely confused and asked if it was me and when did I make such a recording! My ears are not closed though to the fabulous pianists of today, far from it and seemingly unlike you, I take a keen interest in their activities such as with the piano competitions. As with the link below featuring Vadym Kholodenko from the 2013 Cliburn, the playing is beautiful, sensitive and exquisite, with power when needed.

Liszt - Chasse-Neige
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2V8R_e2KbA

And this from 2011 was some of the best Liszt playing I had heard in a long time:

Liszt - Grosses Konzertsolo
Misha Dacic, pianist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x2dY6406ms

With the passage of the years I have more and more respect for the Urtextians' idea of reserving one's personal maximum power for strategic placement in the performance of a music composition. To play a fortissimo composition at full power from start to finish can become problematic anyhow as the hammers fly off (that poor Bösendorfer in Sweden in the near future!).

The issue here is not with your ideals, it is with what seems to be exclusionary application of them that hardly embodies the 19th-century ideal of individual freedom following the overthrow of l'ancien regime.

p.s. - And Anton Nel's performance of Schubert's Wanderer Fantasy and Fugue, that now is one of my favourites right up there with Nyiregyhazi's - to find issue with either performance is nothing but pettiness.


M.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Michael Sayers #2138229 08/24/13 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
[quote=Louis Podesta]Michael:

Hi Louis, music history seems to never repeat itself, so when the next big shake up in the world of classical music arrives anything is possible but I don't think a return to a prior era in music is very likely.

The issue here is not with your ideals, it is with what seems to be exclusionary application of them that hardly embodies the 19th-century ideal of individual freedom following the overthrow of l'ancien regime.


M.


I applaud your individuality, when it comes to performance. However, you have what 99% of the piano majors in the U.S. do not have, and that is a choice.

That is what I want the pianists of this world who matriculate formally, and informally, to have, which they do not have today thanks to the "Urtext mob."

Once they have that freedom of choice, then my gut tells me that piano performance is going to become way more musical than it is now.

Earl Wild played jazz when he was a teenager, then he was a staff pianist for NBC, and after that he was a concert pianist for 50 years. So, when he comments that the music schools of today, with their straight jacket mentality, have caused a significant decline in the level of musicality of piano performance, I could not agree more.

I experienced the pack mentality of the conservatory method when I was in school, in the 1970' and 80's, and I have seen nothing since that indicates anything but it getting worse.

Just what do you think has been going on here with this particular post? I cite, along with my research, the works of three of the top applied musicologists on this planet, and I get eviscerated for my efforts.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2138232 08/24/13 11:43 AM
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First of all, it's not getting worse because people aren't asynchronizing everything.

No wait, first of all - what EXACTLY is your problem with urtext? You know that means original text, right? They're not some evil conspiracy theory that has an evil plan to make people play in a bad, bad way. Seriously - I thought you were a grown man; it's sort of what a child might think. Urtext merely shows what the composer has written, it DOESN'T dictate you how you should play everything. You kind of have to have a brain and think of that yourself, given the "clues" in the score that you have in front of you. I seriously do not understand your problem with "urtext", unless you can't read music. Which, you know, some people can't - nothing to feel embarrassed about.

Now, second of all - it's not getting "worse" because people aren't arpeggiating everything and asynchronizing everything. That has NOTHING to do with it - but obviously, you're not going to change your stubborn little mind, so I guess my words are going into an empty void. I'll say it anyway. One of the main reasons why today a lot of young players lack individuality is because in today's musical culture, missing three notes means you're heading straight to helll. Worse - no competition will ever let you past their pre-screening, which means it'll be more difficult to get concerts, and forget about getting management. When people start focusing purely on the notes, something gets lost, because then it becomes much more difficult to think BEYOND the notes. And I know this from experience - it's a lot, a loooooooooooooooooooooooot easier to play clean and note-perfect if you aren't trying to do much else with the music. It's suddenly so easy to play the 7th Beethoven violin sonata note perfect.

The other reason is that people are now listening to recordings of whatever they are playing over and over and over again, and more often than not it'll be some mediocre recording. "Just to see how it goes!" but over and over again. Then, without a doubt, they will subconsciously (sometimes even consciously) attribute elements of those recordings into their own playing, and often will not have a reason of doing certain things (tempo, shaping, etc). When that happens, it's easy to forget to think and REALLY listen at what you're doing and actually create something with your own brain.

So combine these two, and there you have your not-so-original player. It has nothing to do with learning a score from an urtext, or refusing to asynchronize every single expressive passage.

Before you start attacking me, I suggest you take a day to think about this.

Also. Can you, instead of citing "leading musicologists", perhaps cite leading pianists? I would love it if you send an email to Fleisher, inquiring about it all.

Last edited by Pogorelich.; 08/24/13 11:54 AM.


"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2138263 08/24/13 12:39 PM
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"I completely agree with your premise. That is why I love listening to the old, now dead pianists! . . .
All good wishes,
Barbara Nissman"

This lady, who besides her Romantic Period repertoire, has long been considered one of the top Prokofiev specialists in the world. She can play rings around your precious Mr. Fleisher!

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Louis Podesta #2138267 08/24/13 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Louis Podesta
"I completely agree with your premise. That is why I love listening to the old, now dead pianists! . . .
All good wishes,
Barbara Nissman"

This lady, who besides her Romantic Period repertoire, has long been considered one of the top Prokofiev specialists in the world. She can play rings around your precious Mr. Fleisher!


What does any of that have to do with anything?

Can you not address any of my points?

P.S. learn to show some sort of respect towards someone like Fleisher, even if you don't like his playing. Otherwise no one will take you seriously, you'll [censored] off a lot of people, and you'll become a huge joke everywhere you go. Just a thought.

Last edited by Pogorelich.; 08/24/13 12:55 PM.


"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2138277 08/24/13 01:00 PM
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THIS THREAD IS NOW TEDIOUS.

YOU HAVE EXACTLY TEN POSTS TO WRAP UP ALL OF THE INANE AND REPETITIVE ARGUMENTS, SO PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GO WILD BEFORE I CLOSE IT.

Re: Is the score sacred? Apparently not.
Steve Chandler #2138279 08/24/13 01:01 PM
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TEN

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