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The Paderewski edition prints information that is more than a half-century old (and was none-too-accurate even in its day).

The "Cortot" manuscript is now part of the Lehman deposit at the Morgan Library in New York. (For how much longer, we do not know, because the entire Lehman collection is up for sale.)

The metronome marking in the German edition is quarter note = 100. (In one very interesting copy of this edition I have seen, the original owner added in ink the flag to turn the metronome mark into the correct eighth note = 100.)

The Warsaw manuscript was used as the basis for printing the French edition, hence the evidence that Chopin changed the qualitative tempo marking at the proof stage. As I noted earlier in this thread, in Chopin's day the difference between "Vivace" and "Lento" was not so great, especially when both were moderated by the "ma non troppo" indication. (A similar situation arose in Chopin's day with "Andantino" and "Allegretto," which meant virtually the same thing in terms of practical tempi.) Ekier,in his notes to the National Edition, observes that the metronomic tempi of all the more lyrical Etudes seem much faster than most pianists play them today: this also tells us that there has been a general slowing in the time since Chopin wrote them, and that - perhaps! - Chopin intended something rather different than what we hear in these pieces.

Jeff Kallberg

Thanks for the updated information. I assume that at least the half note misprint has now been corrected also in the Paderweski edition.
I just noticed this discussion today because I haven't been here for a long time due to illness, so I just quickly had a look because this issue caught my attention.

I am getting closer to being able to play the Cantabile. I can pretty much play it at around eighth note =60 so a bit to go on tempo, but I am struggling on pedaling. My piano teacher is finally strong enough to teach again and that will help.

I have learned a ton from it, so much so that some of the other repertoire seems so trivial, but it has also led to some sloppiness in the easier pieces which I have to watch. I pretty much started piano to play Chopin so playing through one of his pieces is a lot of fun. It is also very structurally similar to Op 9 No 2, but I have resisted the urge to start fumbling through it.

I really need to focus and playing things perfectly and musically. So I am not in a huge rush. I have noticed in my own playing and listening to pianists that I do not like, how important the variation of dynamics is to bringing the magic out of piano pieces.

OT but I'm posting it on the grounds that Chopin himself would be interested! This article gives a great example of the way myths about history get perpetuated and how careful we need to be with sources.

Mozart's burial

One way or another, we can definitely say that Chopin got a far better sendoff than Mozart did.

ChopinAddict, I hope you are feeling better.

Elene

Great article!!
Thanks for your concern,lene. Unfortunately the tragic death of a dear friend two months ago exacerbated my health problems, but music, in particular the music of our friend, always helps.

My husband found this while looking for world music:

Mazurkas of the World Festival in Warsaw

We were both surprised at this music, which wasn't like Polish folk music we'd heard before. The closest thing to a Chopin-style mazurka, strangely enough, was one by Telemann.

The finale is probably your only lifetime chance to hear a polonaise played by a band that includes bagpipes, saxophones, nyckelharpas, and a sackbut.

Elene

Elene,
Thanks for that link. Interesting -- and about this thing from it:

"....the folk heritage of Poland got buried during the Communist years as state sponsored folk troupes were kitsch at best, and distorted its guts and glory into an over-produced, homogenized cliché...."

At the amateur Chopin competition, one of the staff members was talking with us about how Polish music was suppressed in Poland during that period, to the point that unbelievably, very few young Poles even knew who Chopin was! He cited some figure -- I think it was 6% -- that would be totally not credible except that he wasn't someone who would have been making things up or exaggerating.

Happily, it is now changing.

On another note....here's something funny (inadvertently funny) that I found online in some program notes on the B minor Sonata (#3):

"....The finale Presto non tanto leaps to life with a powerful eight bar introduction built of octaves before the main theme, correctly marked Agitato, launches this rondo in B minor...."

Note the "correctly."

I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt and figure that the "correctly" reflects a mild language barrier. But no matter -- we're allowed to laugh over it anyway.

How kind of them to allow that Chopin was right about his expressive marking....

Yes, I'm glad they approve!

But they may have been trying to say that there were some discrepancies among copies or editions and that they considered the "agitato" marking to be the authentic one. I don't know. Certainly language glitches can sometimes make such things unintentionally amusing.

Elene

Indeed. I'm with you on trying to give every possible benefit of the doubt, figuring that they may have meant something other than the thing we'd laugh at. So let's see....

The Polish National Edition, which seems now to be regarded most widely as the most authoritative edition, includes a supplemental volume of commentary in which the major discrepancies among editions are noted and discussed. Let's see what they say about the Agitato marking:

NOTHING

Not that this is definitive, because (as I've seen) not every discrepancy gets mentioned. But I've yet to see any major discrepancy or controversy of which I was aware fail to be mentioned, so I think it's close to sure that there aren't editions without the marking.

HOWEVER, for what it's worth, I can say this: I've seen the "agitato" indicated in two different ways:

-- As a new tempo indication -- y'know, with a capital "A" and in bold letters; or

-- Just as an expressive indication but not a new tempo indication, with a small "a."

The difference would be subtle, without there being any clear difference in how it should be done but with a difference in the feeling and attitude about it. (Strictly speaking, the former would mean that you could launch into a quite different speed than the introduction, but I don't think anyone would do that anyway.)

But I don't think I've ever seen it without the agitato at all. Anyway, it was a good question you raised, and I didn't know what answer I'd find in that National Edition.

BTW, let me take the opportunity to mention also that the editor of that great edition is Jan Ekier, who happens to have been one of the early prize winners in the Chopin Competition, was involved in the organization as a judge for many years until not that long ago, and happily is still with us!
He celebrates his 100th birthday next week (August 29).

It will be one instance where "Sto lat" will be literally true.

I guess Pan Ekier has made it past the century mark now. I wonder what it's like to play at that age?

Here's a little thought for Labor Day. A professional pianist I know received this comment from a friend (now an EX-friend):
"I didn't know you worked. I thought you just played the piano."

Elene

Elene -- I only just saw this. Pretty funny.

And after all, when we ask one another what we're playing, at least half the time it isn't "what are you playing," but "what are you working on," isn't it....

And I can't resist the chance to post this old TV thing: [b]Van Cliburn on "What's My Line"[/b]

At 2:51, with the panel being stumped and getting a "No" to almost every question about whether he does 'this' or whether he does 'that' (they're just not thinking of anything like classical music), they start joking like this must be someone who does nothing. Allen Ludden asks, "Have you worked lately?" And Cliburn answers (in his put-on accent), "Och! If you only knew how much work I have to do all the time!"

Hello everyone: I can't believe that I have finally been successful in logging onto the DtC thread. I've missed you all. As I am writing this, the piano tuner is operating on my grand, hoping to save its life...and mine along with it.

I'm afraid I haven't been playing for quite a while. But with the winter months approaching, I know I will have hours and hours to try to relearn all the pieces I once knew.

Thank you for keeping this thread going with such informative and interesting posts. You all make Chopin proud.

Always, Kathleen

HELLO!!!

WOW! Polyphonist, that is some Welcome back sign. Thank you and thank you to all for making me feel like coming home is where I should be.

I've been relearning Mazurka, Op 17, #4. Not doing too badly though I must say the section starting with measure 61 is quite a challenge for medium-sized hands. However, when I get to measure 91, that first chord has to be a misprint or else the piece was meant for Horowitz and the like. My music shows...LH - a,e,b --- RH - d,g#,f. Is this correct? And if so, any advice on how to reach that f?

Thanks again,
Kathleen

Kathleen, what copy are you using? Unfortunately, mine is Schirmer. I am working on Op 63 #3 since I signed up for the Mazurka recital for the forum.

My version has exactly the same notes as you mentioned above for Measure 91. It's not comfortable but I can reach d to f. If I cannot reach, with the pedal on, I would roll the aebdg# fast in left hand and play the last note of the rolled chord (g#) with f. Someone else probably have a better Idea but that's the only thing I can think of. For this particular passage, I don't think voicing will be affected much by rolling the chord.

In my piece Op 63 #3 I had to roll chord a couple of times. Also I had to change the fingering & hands in measures 70 and 71. In this piece, Chopin uses 3 note phrase b-a-g# a lot like a question. Towards the he buries it in the fugue like passage. I think it's very cool. If I use Shirmer's fingering, I had to play b-a in left hand and g# in right hand as a part of the chord. It kills it. You would no longer hears the three note phrase. So I decided to play all three notes in my right hand. I had to cross my left hand over to play the remaining notes in my right hand but it works. Anyway, i think it's ok to change the fingerings

Thank you, FarmGirl. I appreciate your taking the time to answer my question. Yes, I certainly did think of rolling that chord because there was no other way for me to play it. However, since that upper F, in its striking discordance, is really what makes the piece a mazurka (in my humble opinion) I think I will play all the other notes as a chord and then quickly strike that F on its own. It has to be quick to get the full effect. I've tried several ways and this one seems to work the best for me and still doesn't change the way the music was written...all that much. I know there are many "purists" out there who would cringe at what I am doing, but to my way of thinking..., playing Chopin's music, albiet not perfectly, is the important thing. And, as we all know, the master, himself, continued to revise and revise. And I happen to think he would not be at all offended if I took just this one bit of liberty.

Good luck with your mazurka. It is a lovely one (aren't they all). And thanks again.

Kathleen